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Author Topic:   Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !!
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 151 of 183 (410731)
07-17-2007 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Jazzns
07-16-2007 2:56 PM


Re: Some Observations
From my perspective, you cannot sit there and talk to me about the loving compassion of Jesus and in a seperate instance explain how homosexuality and beastiality are moral equivalents. Well, I guess you CAN do it but not without seeming like a walking contradiction. As much as you and RR seem to TRY to seperate out the salvation message from your political views, you FAIL to do that almost at every single turn.

ahem, I have left it up to God, thank you very much.

I think I will have to make that my sig.

SO when it comes time for the non-religious folks on this board to look at the glossy back of their eyelids as they shut for the last time, try to think about what their perception of Christ is like. For all you know, their only exposure might have been YOUR attitudes on this very forum

I take full responsibility. My only prayer is that I don't screw up divine encounters.

What I do not take the blame for, is what other have done to those people, that make them see me in the wrong light. It is up to them to get past that.

Too many people have "oaths" (stuck in their ways)on this board (and in life) and that is the basis for prejudice, and not being free. When true forgiveness takes place, then you are no longer bound by these oaths you have made about life. the bars can be lifted one by one, as God reveals tham to us.

Actually, the Bible claims that as a believer you should have super-powers.

If your faith is strong enough, you can move a mountain. Guess I am just a pimple of faith then.

But even super-powers does not mean a good life.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Jazzns, posted 07-16-2007 2:56 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 07-17-2007 1:48 AM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 167 by Jazzns, posted 07-17-2007 11:37 AM riVeRraT has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16677
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 152 of 183 (410734)
07-17-2007 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by riVeRraT
07-17-2007 12:34 AM


riVeRraT writes:

If your faith is strong enough, you can move a mountain.

You don't need faith to move a mountain. You just need a lot of trips with a wheelbarrow.

Leaving it up to God isn't good enough. You have to grab a shovel and dig in and do it yourself.

If somebody has the wrong impression about you, that's your responsibility. Stop talking like a bigot and people will stop calling you a bigot. Stop acting like a fundie and people will stop calling you a fundie.

Maybe on your deathbed you'll realize that.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 12:34 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 6:03 AM ringo has responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 153 of 183 (410758)
07-17-2007 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by ringo
07-17-2007 1:48 AM


You have to grab a shovel and dig in and do it yourself.

Do what myself? I've done everything I am supposed to do.
Now it is up to God to set people straight, including myself.

Stop acting like a fundie and people will stop calling you a fundie.

Dude, I was a fundie before I even made my first post here. Give me a break.

That's the problem, too many people think that just because they accept gays, and hate christians, that they are beyond prejudice, and their own form of bigotry. I call hypocrisy to the nth degree.

So tell me, now that I am for gay marriage (in the state) yet I still do not understand how a person can be attracted to another person of the same sex, wtf am I doing wrong?

You want me to lie, and say the bible condones homosexuality?
You want me to lie, and say, I feel it is right for myself to be gay? That if I turned gay tomorrow, that I would all of sudden not think it is a sin FOR MYSELF?

Yea, all that could change on my death bed, if God shows up, and tells me I was completely wrong, and explains to me why. Or if rrhain shows up and gives me good head. :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 07-17-2007 1:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by nator, posted 07-17-2007 9:32 AM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 168 by ringo, posted 07-17-2007 11:41 AM riVeRraT has responded

ikabod
Member (Idle past 2665 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 154 of 183 (410761)
07-17-2007 7:46 AM


As a aside , and not going off topic (i hope and entend), i think the topic has shown that the OP was a valid question ,the atheists and xians are almost the same , they are use identical method s to attack the other view , both take the stand point that they hold the irrevocable truth on the nature of the universe , and others use their alternative to cloak hidden attitudes. in fact with the editting of the odd word you could not tell if its xian or athiest who is being intolerent , oppressive and being a bigot ...Please , no offence , cos i know we are all guilty ..

thus Riverrat's OP clearly has value in that he is asking a group who act much like xian's if they will experience a change to their present faith ...MY WORDS

NOTE as no one has proven the non exsistance of god / gods atheisum is a belief not a fact ..(ooh am i going to get some stick now )

it is so very interesting that the athesit react so strongly to this questioning of their faith .. 99.999..% the exact same way xians react when theirs is questioned .
Both then drag bout the canons of their faiths and so we get to the mud slinging that soon its hard to tell one from another .

so what does this tell us .. we are all frightlingly similar , and even at the point of death most hold their "faith" so strong that they will not entertain a different view .. this seems to counter Riverrats opinion that we will turn to god at the end ...guess that answers the OP .....

unless of course god put all the atheists there to test the belivers and see if they are string in their faith or will follow the latest fasion ..... na god would not be so sneaky would she ...?


Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 8:06 AM ikabod has not yet responded
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18494
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 155 of 183 (410762)
07-17-2007 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by riVeRraT
07-17-2007 12:01 AM


Re: Some Observations
Hi riVeRraT,

First off, don't be so upset. In part, I was just giving you the same treatment Berberry got. Doesn't feel so good when you're on the other end, does it? Amazing how the vocabulary of upset people becomes so similar.

But though the style was intended to push your buttons, I didn't say anything I didn't mean, so let's go over it.

riVeRraT writes:

What is incredibly perverse isn't your rejection of the idea of no God. It's your rejection of the statements of belief in no God by atheists and agnostics as what they truly believe. "I believe there is no God," say atheists. "No you don't," you respond. Crazy.

Why do you (and others) give me this line of crap, when I have repeatedly told everyone that I was agnostic for 30 years

And that's what you learned in your 30 years as an agnostic, that all agnostics are alike and actually know in their hearts that there is a God, but are in denial?

Plenty of people besides me are holding up the same mirror to you. The lack of insight, sensitivity and tolerance you demonstrate stands in stark contrast to your professed Christianity.

Huh?

I WAS AGNOSTIC FOR 30 YEARS!

I don't think the mirror you're looking in is reflecting the agnostic you were. I think it's reflecting the person you are.

Yes, I know, you seem well practiced in forgiving the behavior of those you yourself frustrate to the point of frothing at the mouth.

Forgiving the behavior?
WTF is that supposed to mean?

That you're so wonderful for forgiving gays and Berberry. After all, everyone knows that Christians are the arbiter of all that is right and wrong, of what is sin, and that if a Christian decides you are a sinner then you are a sinner, and you should thank your lucky stars if the Christian forgives you.

You placed yourself on the higher moral ground with claims that atheists and agnostics have no basis for establishing moral behavior.

WTF?
When did I say that?

I think you're right, it must have been NJ. Sorry.

Oh, and f-off. I am not a racist, or a bigot, or intolerant.

Really? This is you in Message 51:

riVeRraT in Message 51 writes:

And plenty of gay people have done me harm, fortunately, thanks to my God, I forgave them. If it wasn't for that, I might head of the gay bashing committee or something. Thanks to God, that I am tolerant of gay marriage now.

There it is in black and white, your paranoia about gays to the point where you think they're out to get you and have actually harmed you, and your placing yourself on the moral high ground as the vessel of forgiveness for those you perceive as having trespassed against you.

The origin of fears of people and groups different from ourselves is probably buried somewhere in evolutionary history, but the development of rationales justifying these fears had to wait until the invention of religion.

You hide behind Christianity as justification for the hurt and pain you cause those who have done you no harm.

Hurt and pain?
Where? When?
Give me a fucking break. Your post was like one long insulting, attack to me. And from the person who made the rules. Just awesome.

I've gone over this ground before, but I don't recall the reply, if there was one. Aren't you in favor of efforts to teach creation science or ID, or reduce treatments of evolution? Aren't you for laws against abortion? Aren't you against gay rights, I'm not sure which ones specifically, but possibilities are being against gays in the military or as teachers or as parents, you get the idea?

Have public school children or teachers done you any harm?

Have women wishing to end their pregnancy done you any harm?

Have gays done you any harm? I know your answer to this one is yes, but that opinion only speaks about you, not gays.

Your own prejudices, intolerance, hatred, towards "CHRISTIANS" has hidden the truth from you.

Well there you go, your problem in a nutshell. You express hatred and intolerance, people take note of it when replying to you, and you deny it and deem the mere ability to detect these qualities as hatred and intolerance.

I have nothing against Christians. I don't treat Christians, an enormously diverse group, in the same way you treat gays as a homogeneous group and atheists as a homogeneous group, stereotyping them as if they were all clones. I'm just using Christians in this thread as a shorthand label for "Christians like you and NJ and others like you who are very common on this forum." Sorry if that wasn't clear.

And my history here? WTF is that supposed to mean?
I have always been mistaken for a fundie. Your the one with the problem, not me.

Why you express pretty much the same views as fundamentalists while making expressions that you are not a fundamentalists is not a mystery I will try to unravel. Why don't you ask yourself why you and NJ are so much in agreement if you're not really a fundamentalist?

Well at least I am honest, have a nice day. Oh and thanks for your incredibly insulting OFF-TOPIC post.

I quoted what you said each time before responding, so if it was off-topic then we'll both have to share the blame.

But allow me to try to salvage some topic at the end. These are the beliefs you gave in your opening post that I think most people think are incorrect:

  • "...we were all created to worship God..."

  • "...So we all know God in our hearts/spirits."

  • "An atheist will go around his whole life denouncing God or claim God does not exist..."

  • "...[when] you are on your death bed, and you are taking your last breath, I think that will change at that moment for you."

We understand that you really and truly believe these things, but trust us on this, they are all, in the general sense, wrong.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 12:01 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 8:33 AM Percy has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 156 of 183 (410764)
07-17-2007 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by ikabod
07-17-2007 7:46 AM


I just wanted to say, that I agree with your view.
Anyone who claims to be open minded, a necessary scientific/logical quality, should agree also.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ikabod, posted 07-17-2007 7:46 AM ikabod has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 157 of 183 (410769)
07-17-2007 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Percy
07-17-2007 8:01 AM


Re: Some Observations
Again I will explain everything for you, since you still seem to not get it, my position. You have me so one sided, and I am just not that way.

And that's what you learned in your 30 years as an agnostic, that all agnostics are alike and actually know in their hearts that there is a God, but are in denial?

No, but it is a possibility. Being deceived, and being in denial are
two different things, and I have expressed both. They are not absolutes as far as explanations go. Most of what I say, I do not say as an absolute.

I don't think the mirror you're looking in is reflecting the agnostic you were. I think it's reflecting the person you are.

I am 41, and I feel I have a wonderful learning curve. I am no way stuck in my ways, and if life has taught me anything, it is that I can always learn. Some of what I say, I would have not believe just a few years ago.

That you're so wonderful for forgiving gays and Berberry. After all, everyone knows that Christians are the arbiter of all that is right and wrong, of what is sin, and that if a Christian decides you are a sinner then you are a sinner, and you should thank your lucky stars if the Christian forgives you.

You see, this is the epitome of how you are. At no point in any of my conversations did I give you a reason to come up with this statement.
Since I have been here on this forum, and some almost 5,000 posts, did I ever give you a reason to say what you just said. If anything I have been preaching the opposite, over and over and over. I think you owe me an apology.

I do not forgive beberry. I do not need to, he has not done anything wrong to me. I am a sinner just like him. If anything, I need forgiveness from him, if my way of thinking offends him.

I have never called anyone a sinner here, without calling myself a sinner. Everyone sins, but everyone can be forgiven. IF I am to be forgiven, then I must forgive. If someone sins against me. Beberry has not sinned against me. I have never condemned anyone, or convicted anyone. I have never in my life said someone was going to hell.

So where you are getting this stuff, must be from you, and you are the one with the problem. Maybe the mirror needs to be turned around? I don't know, you tell me.

There it is in black and white, your paranoia about gays to the point where you think they're out to get you and have actually harmed you, and your placing yourself on the moral high ground as the vessel of forgiveness for those you perceive as having trespassed against you.

You have no idea what I am talking about. You have only assumed that gay people have done something to me, by just being gay. That is not the case. It goes into things much more personal than that, and I have never held a grudge against anyone, JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE GAY, or anything for that matter. Gay people do not offend me. Gay sex to me is disgusting, but that is my problem.

I have covered all this before in other threads.

I married an hispanic woman, my friends are gay, black, white, and hispanic.

If anything I get along with white people the least. I can't take their bigotry, and the way they treat people of different backrounds. I often speak out against it, and I was hated for it.
shit, in most of the places I worked, I was the minority, and had a first hand experience at how they feel. In Harlem NYC I found that most black people won't even hold the door for you, just because you are white.

I've gone over this ground before, but I don't recall the reply, if there was one. Aren't you in favor of efforts to teach creation science or ID, or reduce treatments of evolution?

No.

Aren't you for laws against abortion?

I am not sure. I certainly do not like abortion, and feel the choice is when you decide to have sex, not after the fact. I consider myself pro-choice.

Aren't you against gay rights, I'm not sure which ones specifically, but possibilities are being against gays in the military or as teachers or as parents, you get the idea?

Shit no. Gay people are outstanding people.

Have public school children or teachers done you any harm?

Maybe when I was a child, very few other children tried to harm me.

Have women wishing to end their pregnancy done you any harm?

It's not about me, but the life they choose to create, and take a chance on creating.

Have gays done you any harm? I know your answer to this one is yes, but that opinion only speaks about you, not gays.

Yes, but not because they were gay. Because they were shitty people, who happen to be gay.

I have nothing against Christians. I don't treat Christians, an enormously diverse group, in the same way you treat gays as a homogeneous group and atheists as a homogeneous group, stereotyping them as if they were all clones.

I do nothing of the sort, and the fact that I don't means you need to look in the mirror.

Why don't you ask yourself why you and NJ are so much in agreement if you're not really a fundamentalist?

Because I am not one.

But allow me to try to salvage some topic at the end. These are the beliefs you gave in your opening post that I think most people think are incorrect:

* "...we were all created to worship God..."

* "...So we all know God in our hearts/spirits."

* "An atheist will go around his whole life denouncing God or claim God does not exist..."

* "...[when] you are on your death bed, and you are taking your last breath, I think that will change at that moment for you."

We understand that you really and truly believe these things, but trust us on this, they are all, in the general sense, wrong.

--Percy

First you say, you think they are wrong, then you say, they are wrong. Which one is it?

If you say you think they are wrong, then that is the best thing you could say, as I have said what my opinion was. The OP was only my opinion, and my belief, under certain circumstances.

If I was so set in my ways, I would not have bothered to ask the question....

ABE
If there is any truth in what I say, I do not expect any immediate revelations to happen. But the truth will work it's way in, if it is truth. People can choose for themselves, and make their own destinations.

Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Percy, posted 07-17-2007 8:01 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Parasomnium, posted 07-17-2007 8:45 AM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 162 by Percy, posted 07-17-2007 9:21 AM riVeRraT has responded

Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 868 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 158 of 183 (410772)
07-17-2007 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by riVeRraT
07-17-2007 8:33 AM


Ahem...
riVeRraT writes:

I do not forgive beberry. I do not need to, he has not done anything wrong to me. I am a sinner just like him. If anything, I need forgiveness from him, if my way of thinking offends him.

I have never called anyone a sinner, here. I have never condemned anyone, or convicted anyone. I have never in my life said someone was going to hell.

Not to be pedantic, but I thought I'd point out something that stands out like a sore thumb. (If you look closely, the bolded parts may even seem to pulsate.)


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 8:33 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 8:48 AM Parasomnium has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 159 of 183 (410773)
07-17-2007 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Parasomnium
07-17-2007 8:45 AM


Re: Ahem...
I was fixing that as you were posting your reply.
I feel we are all sinners.
I do not single out anyones sin, or point it out to them, they know if they are sinning or not.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Parasomnium, posted 07-17-2007 8:45 AM Parasomnium has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 342 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 160 of 183 (410774)
07-17-2007 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by riVeRraT
07-16-2007 11:30 AM


Re: Some Observations
I think it is interesting that you continue to cling to this double standard, rat.

First, you make the following arrogant presumption about athiests and agnostics whom you don't even know:

quote:
No, I believe atheists, and agnostics know God in their hearts, but can be deceived by the world into thinking He doesn't exist.

In the next breath, you object to the very same treatment when you perceive Percy to be doing it:

quote:
Oh, I do accept your answer, what I don't accept is your misconceptions and accusations of who and what I am. What am I really up to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by riVeRraT, posted 07-16-2007 11:30 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 12:36 PM nator has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 342 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 161 of 183 (410775)
07-17-2007 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Hyroglyphx
07-16-2007 1:47 PM


Re: Some Observations
quote:
I don't think atheists know in their mind that God exists, but are troubled by what they know in their heart, so that there is this constant tension.

There isn't any "constant tension" with me.

Tell me, Juggs, were you this presumptuous and arrogant before your conversion to Fundyism, or did you always figure that you knew everyone else's "true beliefs", even if it contradicts what they actually tell you?

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 1:47 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18494
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 162 of 183 (410777)
07-17-2007 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by riVeRraT
07-17-2007 8:33 AM


Re: Some Observations
Hey, look, Riv, I just don't have the skill to unravel these contradictions. If you think saying this:

riVeRraT in Message 51 writes:

And plenty of gay people have done me harm...

Is consistent with this:

riVeRraT in Message 157 writes:

I have never held a grudge against anyone, JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE GAY, or anything for that matter.

I know you also said there were "details", but that doesn't justify stigmatizing an entire group that has not done you any harm Later denials made under duress just don't ring as true as freely made unsolicited statements. And Parasomnium just noted another contradiction from you in his Message 158.

What I see is a pattern of statements that to many people appear to reflect bigotry and intolerance followed, once they're noted, by strenuous denial. Which is the real you? Got me.

Somewhere in the Bible it says something like, "Judge not, that ye be not judged." It's good advice. If you stop judging atheists to be deniers of God who they unconsciously know in their heart exists, and judging gays to have done you harm, and just stop judging period, you may find fewer judgments flowing back toward you.

The reality is that all large groups are incredibly diverse. I'll bet you've been harmed by birdwatchers. The nature of bigotry is to accept stereotypes, which begin by generalizing from solitary acts to larger groups. I was robbed by a black man, therefore blacks are bad. I was cut off in traffic by an Asian, therefore Asians are bad drivers. My heart was broken by a women, therefore women are devil-spawn. Feeling this way is just part of our evolutionary makeup, our evolutionary psychology, and recognizing this can be very helpful toward resisting these inner impulses to which we're all heir.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 8:33 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 1:09 PM Percy has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 342 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 163 of 183 (410778)
07-17-2007 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by riVeRraT
07-17-2007 12:16 AM


Re: Created with Fear
quote:
It's about doing the "right thing." A coin phrase said by manyh people here. Just where does this "right thing" come from?

Society.

As in, we are social animals, and thus have developed rules for behavior in order to create a more cohesive group.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 12:16 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 1:12 PM nator has not yet responded

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 183 (410779)
07-17-2007 9:24 AM


ahem
Since my name is being cited in posts which seem to equate rat with nemjug, I feel I must speak up.

Rat is no more my friend than is nemjug. But I've paid at least passing attention to rat since he came here, and over that fairly long period of time I've seen considerable change in him. I don't have nearly the time to read everything he posts (if I've missed something I should see, someone please point it out), but I've read enough to know that he still says thing I find insulting. However, even at his worst, his bite is much less piercing than nemjug's. That wasn't always true.

I see potential in rat, maybe enough that one day he might earn my trust to the point that I'd call him friend, but even here and now he at least finds a way to make his anti-gay statements much less deeply insulting. I wouldn't lump him in with nemjug quite so eagerly as some folks are doing.


W.W.E.D.?
nator
Member (Idle past 342 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 165 of 183 (410781)
07-17-2007 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by riVeRraT
07-17-2007 6:03 AM


quote:
That's the problem, too many people think that just because they accept gays, and hate christians, that they are beyond prejudice, and their own form of bigotry.

I don't hate anyone.

I do strongly reject bigotry and those who are bigotted, however.

Not all Christians are bigots, but most of the ones who post here have certainly displayed bigotry, including you.

And I fully realize that everyone is prone to bigotry. Xenophobia and fear of difference is part of the human condition. It is something that I monitor and try to counter in myself all the time.

The difference between me and a religious bigot is that I have no notion of a God that commands me to be a bigot.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 6:03 AM riVeRraT has responded

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