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Author Topic:   Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !!
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 106 of 183 (410447)
07-15-2007 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Percy
07-14-2007 8:18 AM


Re: Some Observations
The fact is, people debate because they think the other guy is wrong.
Sorry Percy, you are wrong on this one.
If you believers out there are still convinced that atheists and agnostics harbor doubts, then let me ask you, when you breath your last dying breath and realize that there's only nothingness after death, will you then realize that it has been a fiction all along? Now let me ask you the real question: Are you a bit insulted by the very question?
No.
You see, the problem with the question, and especially with the way it was phrased in the OP, is that it a) assumes there's a God; and b) assumes that atheists and agnostics know in their hearts there's a God.
It does neither. I clearly state that it is my belief of the later, and I ask if people will turn and ask God something. You can ask Santa something too. Doesn't mean there is an assumed God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Percy, posted 07-14-2007 8:18 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Percy, posted 07-15-2007 7:48 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 107 of 183 (410449)
07-15-2007 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
07-14-2007 11:02 AM


Re: Created to Worship
And why can't people be just like Jesus all the time?
Which Jesus jar? Yours, or the one of the bible?
I will be fair and say that I do not know every single person that ever existed, so there is no way I could really know if it is true or not. But I have never met a person who could be like Jesus all the time.
Totally false. Even if you believe there is the Holy Spirit, you still need to test it to see if what you experience really is that critter.
Oh, how do you do that?
I'm sorry, but where did you present the evidence to support that? What exactly makes you think someone must be closer to God to have the errors of their ways made noticeable?
I never said you MUST be closer to God to notice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 07-14-2007 11:02 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 07-15-2007 10:08 AM riVeRraT has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 108 of 183 (410451)
07-15-2007 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by riVeRraT
07-15-2007 6:18 AM


quote:
Until you get something back, then it is much more than faith.
I didn't get anything back when I did believe.
quote:
Guessing?
People often say in this forum "do the right thing."
What is this right thing?
I would say that the right thing is not to guess. To care about the truth, not to try to delude yourself into belief. Not to take that leap of faith - because a leap of faith is beleiving in a guess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by riVeRraT, posted 07-15-2007 6:18 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by riVeRraT, posted 07-15-2007 7:10 AM PaulK has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 109 of 183 (410452)
07-15-2007 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by ikabod
07-14-2007 11:11 AM


question ..you say in the OP this is directed towards atheists .. why ... why not to anyone who does not belive in you version of god ?
Well it is open to anyone, but Christians should be believing where they will go, and counting on God's mercy.
if as you state the worship of the xian god is inbuilt , then why not ask those who follow different religions if they would call on the "err correct" version . after all technically they are athiests of the xian religion .
Well because they also probably believe they are going somewhere.
I don't question other religions, because it is beyond me. I do accept it, because God created it all, and He knows what He is doing. As I pointed out, I know plenty of atheist, musslims, that are more Christian, than most christians.
firstly do you think there is blame attached to atheistium in any way .. and if so who is to blame .....maybe the atheists could sue the church for failing to convert/enlighten them ??
Yes, in a matter of speaking. I believe we are accountable for our actions. We have divine appointments constantly.
I think God is a fair God. Having said that, what chance does someone like a person who gets molested by a priest have, of knowing God?
I went a long time without knowing God, I don't feel like I would have went to hell if I died then.
When I look at people, regardless of their belief's, I see them all on the same level. We do things on different levels, but we are all human, and I can't possibly know all the explanations why people do things. But God knows.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ikabod, posted 07-14-2007 11:11 AM ikabod has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 110 of 183 (410453)
07-15-2007 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by PaulK
07-15-2007 7:03 AM


I didn't get anything back when I did believe.
Neither did I for a long time.
I would say that the right thing is not to guess. To care about the truth, not to try to delude yourself into belief. Not to take that leap of faith - because a leap of faith is beleiving in a guess.
Reading the bible, focusing just on what Jesus says, is a little more than a guess. It makes sense to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2007 7:03 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2007 7:25 AM riVeRraT has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 111 of 183 (410454)
07-15-2007 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by riVeRraT
07-15-2007 7:10 AM


quote:
Reading the bible, focusing just on what Jesus says, is a little more than a guess. It makes sense to me.
Been there, done that. What makes sense to me is that Jesus was what we'd call the leader of a "Doomsday Cult". He failed and died. The apocalypse didn't come. A little more than a guess ? I'd say it's a desparate guess - against the odds and the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by riVeRraT, posted 07-15-2007 7:10 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Vacate
Member (Idle past 4686 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 112 of 183 (410456)
07-15-2007 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-11-2007 10:33 AM


riVeRraT (in message 1) writes:
Will you at that moment look to God, and maybe ask Him something?
riVeRraT (in message 104) writes:
How strange is it that the majority of us want to live forever, yet our pyhsical beings won't?
I wonder if people would still commit suicide if they knew they could live forever, for certain.
I differ from the majority I guess. Its the thought of living for eternity that would cause me to commit suicide. I suppose that on my deathbed that would be my question for God: Must I continue?
Its not that I do not enjoy life. Its also not that I do not wish for a much longer life. An eternity of anything is a frightening concept! Thats why I prefer Agnosticism, the heaven that so many people strive to reach sounds like the same hell that they say I am heading for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 10:33 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by bluegenes, posted 07-15-2007 8:23 AM Vacate has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22618
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 113 of 183 (410459)
07-15-2007 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by riVeRraT
07-15-2007 6:47 AM


Re: Some Observations
riVeRraT writes:
You see, the problem with the question, and especially with the way it was phrased in the OP, is that it a) assumes there's a God; and b) assumes that atheists and agnostics know in their hearts there's a God.
It does neither. I clearly state that it is my belief of the later, and I ask if people will turn and ask God something. You can ask Santa something too. Doesn't mean there is an assumed God.
Yes, of course it is your belief. Why would I bother to post a message to you rebutting something you don't believe?
You believe that atheists and agnostics know in their hearts that there really is a God. Your refusal to accept that this isn't true s what prompted the whole thread digression we had earlier. If you're not going to accept the answers, if you're already so sure you know how dying atheists and agnostics will behave, why did you ask the question in the first place?
I don't connect, as an aspect of the real world, the Christian God with death. Death is something that really happens in the real world. The Christian God never makes anything happen in the real world. Death is real, the Christian God is fiction (I'm not singling your God out, all other gods are fiction, too).
So why, when I'm facing death, facing an actual reality of the real world, would my mind suddenly turn to reconsider my attitudes toward fiction? And particularly toward the fictions of a religion that observation tells me tends to make people insular, xenophobic and intolerant?
Let's not start down the same path as the earlier digression, where we give you an answer, you reply something to the effect about how wonderful God is and what wonderful things he does, we reply that if Christians are an example of what God can do to people that we want no part of it, and then the digression could once again be in full swing, complete with epithets and everything else.
So let's not go down that path again. I've given my answer. Accept it.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by riVeRraT, posted 07-15-2007 6:47 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by riVeRraT, posted 07-16-2007 11:30 AM Percy has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2562 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 114 of 183 (410460)
07-15-2007 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Vacate
07-15-2007 7:42 AM


Vacate writes:
Thats why I prefer Agnosticism, the heaven that so many people strive to reach sounds like the same hell that they say I am heading for.
Perhaps it's agnostics who end up as ghosts, cursed to spend eternity in the netherworld between earth and...er...who knows where?
I agree about heaven. Let's face it, the Jehovah's Witnesses who knock on my door are going there, and the Islamic suicide bombers are, not to mention real horrors like all the born again hillbillies and G. W. Bush.
Like you, I'll give it a miss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Vacate, posted 07-15-2007 7:42 AM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Vacate, posted 07-15-2007 10:40 AM bluegenes has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34061
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 115 of 183 (410473)
07-15-2007 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by riVeRraT
07-15-2007 6:52 AM


Re: Created to Worship
Which Jesus jar? Yours, or the one of the bible?
I will be fair and say that I do not know every single person that ever existed, so there is no way I could really know if it is true or not. But I have never met a person who could be like Jesus all the time.
But that doesn't answer the question. The question was "Why can't people be like Jesus?"
The reason Jesus became incarnate from the Virgin Mary and was made Man was to show us just what a plain old human can do. If one plain old human can do something, does that not mean others might as well?
jar said
quote:
Totally false. Even if you believe there is the Holy Spirit, you still need to test it to see if what you experience really is that critter.
to which riVeRraT replied:
Oh, how do you do that?
You test the Holy Spirit just as you test God, against reason, logic and reality.
I never said you MUST be closer to God to notice.
Then what difference does it make? Why even bring up stuff like "Closer to God" as though it had any meaning other than nice line from an old hymn?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by riVeRraT, posted 07-15-2007 6:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by riVeRraT, posted 07-16-2007 11:54 AM jar has replied

Vacate
Member (Idle past 4686 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 116 of 183 (410476)
07-15-2007 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by bluegenes
07-15-2007 8:23 AM


bluegenes writes:
I agree about heaven. Let's face it, the Jehovah's Witnesses who knock on my door are going there, and the Islamic suicide bombers are, not to mention real horrors like all the born again hillbillies and G. W. Bush.
Like you, I'll give it a miss.
Though I agree on all counts, thats not actually what I meant.
I literally find the idea terrifying.
riVeRraT (Message1) writes:
but I feel that when it all comes down to it, and you are on your death bed, and you are taking your last breath, I think that will change at that moment for you.
If some sort of truth pops into my head at my moment of death I see no comfort in an eternal anything. In heaven I would have the time to actually learn the math behind all that physics stuff that amazes me, perhaps even learn the most complex aspects of biology. I would read every book (maybe even the bad ones), talk to every person {soul}, maybe even have a few millenea to bang heads with God. Then what??? Seen it all, thought it all, learned it all.
Seriously - once I got all the bases covered Heaven is as much a curse as hell is. Hell may even be an interesting alternative being as I would not have experienced that yet! The interesting thing about pain is the more you are exposed to it the less it hurts. I don't actually fear hell any more than I fear heaven.
I think of Heaven like a chocolate bar. I enjoy it and may eat a second, but I know that faced with an eternity of eating chocolate I would rather sew my lips shut.
So I am agnostic and I hope that the Christians got it all wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by bluegenes, posted 07-15-2007 8:23 AM bluegenes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by riVeRraT, posted 07-16-2007 11:58 AM Vacate has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5993 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 117 of 183 (410479)
07-15-2007 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-11-2007 10:33 AM


riVeRrat
Take some time and try to imagine what it will be like.
The notion of an eternity in anyplace is a horror only for the fact that it is an eternity.
A 100 year life span for many people would be amazing and, if well lived, quite outstanding.
Now imagine 100 of those lifetimes.
Then 1,000,000 of them {10^6}
1,000,000,000 {10^9}
1,000,000,000,000 {10^12}
1,000,000,000,000,000 {10^15}
1,000,000,000,000,000,000 {10^18}
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 {10^21}
Let us run the numbers faster shall we?
In step of change denoted by the power of three it would take another 26 steps to reach 10^99, close enough {lol} to the number designated 10^100 to begin the next round.
10^100
10^100000
10^100000000
10^100000000000
10^100000000000000
10^100000000000000000
10^100000000000000000000
with that many outstanding lifetimes at your disposal imagine the possibilities you could explore. And we have not even begun since this staggering large number of lifetimes is no more a distance down the road of eternity than was the first lifetime. You wish to have eternal life?
Be careful what you wish for.
Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 10:33 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by riVeRraT, posted 07-16-2007 12:06 PM sidelined has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6000 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 118 of 183 (410485)
07-15-2007 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by riVeRraT
07-14-2007 11:12 AM


Created with Fear
I keep making this point concerning this topic. If what you say is true 1) that we are designed by God to worship him and 2) the God of the Bible is the correct, why don't we see a significant number of end-of-life conversions "crying out to Jesus", from the Muslims, Hindus, Jews, pagans?
The point is when people die the will seek the God of their tradition and background.
You are really providing evidence that discounts a particular brand of religion.
RR writes:
Throughout our entire history, most of the human race has worshiped one thing or another. That is objective evidence that we are born with a desire to worship something.
Or this desire is a human response to control nature and deal with the fear of death and human condition.
RR writes:
I do not know what atheists worship, but surely they search for joy somewhere. It is one your death bed, that you might question those ideas. When you are faced with non-existence.
Question what ideas? Please be specific.
It is beginning to look more and more like you believe that "atheists" do not accept God because they are searching for joy or because of some stubborn disobedience to "face the truth".
RiverRat, most people are atheists, agnostics, etc because they cannot accept a storybook God and be honest with themselves. They refuse to take that "leap of faith" just to soothe the fear of dieing. The are unwilling to deceive themselves.
The unintended consequence of this thread is that are underscoring that the underlying belief in God is fear based and not at all some innate spontaneously desire to worship God. If God does exist you would think that he would want us to be honest and courageous.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
Edited by iceage, : Removed off-topic banter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2007 11:12 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by riVeRraT, posted 07-16-2007 12:20 PM iceage has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 183 (410506)
07-15-2007 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by riVeRraT
07-15-2007 6:28 AM


Re: Getting back on track
Did I ever mention, how much it bothers me that anyone could go to hell?
Its supposed to bother you. That's kind of the point.
Why God would do that?
He didn't. They did. Asking why He allows it is as arbitrary as asking why He allows anything, I suppose.
"I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside.
All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will [a grumbling] mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood."
-C.S. Lewis
"In a sense, the concept of hell gives meaning to our lives. It tells us that the moral choices we make day by day have eternal significance, that our behavior has consequences lasting to eternity, that God Himself takes our choices seriously.
The doctrine of hell is not just some dusty theological holdover from the Middle Ages. It has significant social consequences. Without a conviction of ultimate justice, people's sense of moral obligation dissolves, and social bonds are broke.
Of course, these considerations are not the most important reason to believe in hell. Jesus repeatedly issued warnings that if we turn away from God in this life, we will be alienated from God eternally.
And yet, although "the wages of sin is death," Paul also says that "the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). While breath remains, it is never too late to turn to God in repentance, and when we ask for forgiveness, God eagerly grants it."
-Chuck Colson
quote:
Whatever happens to someone right before their death is between them and God.
I have come close to death a few times, and had some time to think about it (before I was a Christian) and like with the case of NosyNed, and loved ones, I sure hope I get to see them again.
Did something happen with NosyNed?
How strange is it that the majority of us want to live forever, yet our pyhsical beings won't?
Yes, such a strange desire given the secular alternative... Nothing. If there is no afterlife, and our thought process is dissolved, what fear is there of the grave? Yet, man does not want to be swallowed up death? Why is that? What is this sense of eternity that we all know, even if we are incapable of comprehensibly understanding its totality?
I wonder if people would still commit suicide if they knew they could live forever, for certain. Probably.
I suspect that people that commit suicide long for the nothing because the everything is too overwhelming to bear. If they knew for certain, I seriously doubt they would take their own lives.

"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by riVeRraT, posted 07-15-2007 6:28 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by iceage, posted 07-15-2007 1:27 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6000 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 120 of 183 (410508)
07-15-2007 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Hyroglyphx
07-15-2007 1:09 PM


Re: Getting back on track
NJ writes:
Its supposed to bother you. That's kind of the point.
As a selling feature of a meme you are right - it is effect and captures people's imagination. The biggest clue that Hell is a selling feature is that the concept morphed into its present state over ages. Hell is an evolved concept and has survival value. Even latter religion's recognized the value of the feature and borrowed the concept because it is an effective selling tool.
quote:
All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell.
  —CS Lewis
The ole self-choice requires the existence of eternal damnation theory. The logic does not follow.
quote:
The doctrine of hell is not just some dusty theological holdover from the Middle Ages. It has significant social consequences. Without a conviction of ultimate justice, people's sense of moral obligation dissolves, and social bonds are broke.
  —CS Lewis
NJ quotes like this seriously harm CS Lewis credibility and yours for valuing sufficiently to quote it.
Let look around for some data points. Take the Japanese and even parts of Europe. The power of the fear of hell is largely nonexistent - however for some reason the social, moral and societal bonds are stronger and more healthy oriented than in cultures were the fear of hell reigns supreme in peoples minds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2007 1:09 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2007 1:51 PM iceage has replied

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