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Author Topic:   Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !!
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 183 (410513)
07-15-2007 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by iceage
07-15-2007 1:27 PM


Re: Getting back on track
As a selling feature of a meme you are right - it is effect and captures people's imagination. The biggest clue that Hell is a selling feature is that the concept morphed into its present state over ages. Hell is an evolved concept and has survival value. Even latter religion's recognized the value of the feature and borrowed the concept because it is an effective selling tool.
You seem to have considerable knowledge on the topic. Would you be so kind to give the rest of us a lecture on the historicity of hell?
quote:
:All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell.
The ole self-choice requires the existence of eternal damnation theory. The logic does not follow.
Freewill does not need hell in order to justify its existence. Hell, however, must need freewill in order to justify its existence.
NJ quotes like this seriously harm CS Lewis credibility and yours for valuing sufficiently to quote it.
That's in the eye of the beholder my friend.
Let look around for some data points. Take the Japanese and even parts of Europe. The power of the fear of hell is largely nonexistent
Buddhism has seven circles of hell, one progressively worse than the other, dependent on the moral crime one commits.
however for some reason the social, moral and societal bonds are stronger and more healthy oriented than in cultures were the fear of hell reigns supreme in peoples minds.
Social bonds in Japan are stronger and more healthy? By what measurement have you come to your deduction? Just like how you seem to not like the Lewis quote, both seem to be a matter of you expressing your opinion as if it were tangible evidence.
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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 183 (410517)
07-15-2007 2:30 PM


The Christian and the conundrum (For Riverrat, but all may respond)
These are excerpts taken from an actual dialogue between two professed Christians.
Questioner: If the end product of the universe is that men suffer eternal separation from God, and if this is the result of the freewill choice, and God purposed this freewill, is not God culpable for the outcome of that choice?
Responder: Do you believe the God of the Bible exists?
Questioner: Yes, I do.
Responder: And do you believe He is sovereign?
Questioner: Yes
Responder: And do you believe He created us for a purpose and a design?
Questioner: I do.
Responder: Do you believe He will do that which is right?
Questioner: Absolutely.
Responder: Then why are we plaguing ourselves with a question on the numbers when we can be absolutely sure that what He has said, He will honor? Will not the judge of all the earth do right?
Now, let me reverse it by going back to an earlier comment. First off, it is not the torment of many that assures the felicity of the few. There is no causation of intent, only a result. There is not many going into lostness so that a few can obtain felicity. There's no causal connection there.
If God in His essence is love, then the absence of God must be the presence of hate and the complete absence of love. Those who have chosen this world, through the sacredness of their will, to reject His love, can confirm in eternal existance to live without His love.
'Hell,' Jean-Paul Sarte said, 'is other people-- the other people who have confirmed themselves in rejection of God.' If it was reversed, it would be like this:
God would have to overrule the freedom of the many in order to transport them in to a heaven they have solemnly rejected. Hell is the confirmation of the sacredness of the freewill.
Do these questions trouble us? Of course. But do I believe in the sovereignty of an infinite God who can make this picture complete without my finite way of comprehensibly understanding it? Absolutely. There is coherence.
If God didn't exist, then think of the problem-- No heaven, no hell. How do you differentiate between an Adolf Hitler and a Mother Theresa? The question more confounding is how we could arrive at such an understanding without a God. Where do we go from there? Some stale, trite explanation about genes? Does not the mind reach for something far more praiseworthy an answer?
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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 07-15-2007 2:44 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 125 by iceage, posted 07-15-2007 3:18 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 123 of 183 (410518)
07-15-2007 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Hyroglyphx
07-15-2007 2:30 PM


Re: The Christian and the conundrum (For Riverrat, but all may respond)
What I find interesting is the denial of orthodox Christian doctrine. If it all comes down to love and hate then there is no need to adhere to any particular belief.
The only other surprise is that it should be posted by someone who comes across as a worshipper of hatred.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2007 2:30 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6000 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 124 of 183 (410520)
07-15-2007 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Hyroglyphx
07-15-2007 1:51 PM


Re: Getting back on track
NJ writes:
You seem to have considerable knowledge on the topic. Would you be so kind to give the rest of us a lecture on the historicity of hell?
Well yes this is really an salient point and certainly worthy of a topic. I am tempted to start here but would diverge away from RR's topic.
However only a cursory knowledge of the Bible reveals the evolution of the concept of Hell as eternal punishment.
iceage writes:
NJ quotes like this seriously harm CS Lewis credibility and yours for valuing sufficiently to quote it.
NJ writes:
That's in the eye of the beholder my friend.
Only if you eyes are wide shut. Empirical evidence suggest otherwise. From this article...
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
There is this quote.
quote:
There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms
Further you say
iceage writes:
Let look around for some data points. Take the Japanese and even parts of Europe. The power of the fear of hell is largely nonexistent
NJ writes:
Buddhism has seven circles of hell, one progressively worse than the other, dependent on the moral crime one commits.
Japan and Europe are considerably more irreligious - regardless of which religion may be indigenous. Your point about Buddhism is irrelevant by the fact that Japan's largest and native religion is Shintoism and as far as I know, they don't make a post-death judgment - who knows there is not a canon, however it is certainly not emphasized. Hell is the focus Christian and Islamic religions.
NJ writes:
Social bonds in Japan are stronger and more healthy? By what measurement have you come to your deduction? Just like how you seem to not like the Lewis quote, both seem to be a matter of you expressing your opinion as if it were tangible evidence.
Are these tangible evidence? homicide, rape, armed robbery, STD's, youth pregnancy, marital/divorce rates. See the above referenced paper "Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies"
Or here is some summary data...
A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE US AND OTHER RICH NATIONS
Prisoners (per 1,000 people):
United States 4.2
United Kingdom 1.0
Germany 0.8
Denmark 0.7
Sweden 0.6
Japan 0.4
Netherlands 0.4
Murder rate (per 100,000 people):
United States 8.40
Canada 5.45
Denmark 5.17
Germany 4.20
Norway 1.99
United Kingdom 1.97
Sweden 1.73
Japan 1.20
Finland 0.70
Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people):
United States 24.4
Canada 2.6
Sweden 2.3
Norway 2.3
Finland 2.3
Denmark 2.2
United Kingdom 2.0
Netherlands 1.2
Germany 0.9
Japan 0.5
Rape (per 100,000 people):
United States 37.20
Sweden 15.70
Denmark 11.23
Germany 8.60
Norway 7.87
United Kingdom 7.26
Finland 7.20
Japan 1.40
Armed robbery (per 100,000 people)
United States 221
Canada 94
United Kingdom 63
Sweden 49
Germany 47
Denmark 44
Finland 38
Norway 22
Japan 1
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Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2007 1:51 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6000 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 125 of 183 (410522)
07-15-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Hyroglyphx
07-15-2007 2:30 PM


Re: The Christian and the conundrum (For Riverrat, but all may respond)
NJ you are seriously taking this topic off course. But some things seriously need to be rebutted.
NJ writes:
If God in His essence is love, then the absence of God must be the presence of hate and the complete absence of love. Those who have chosen this world, through the sacredness of their will, to reject His love, can confirm in eternal existance to live without His love.
If you are referring to the God of the Bible - his essence is not Love. Ya there are a few warm passage about love in NT, but there are many many more passages where love is not the principle or practice.
You say "those who have chosen this world...reject his love" and are hell bound.
However, many people are hell bound per Christian doctrine have not "chosen this world". They are millions that believe in the religion of their tradition/culture and are much more pious and rejecting of the world than most Christians.
Further there are more that just can't feed themselves a deceit to comfort their fears and uncertainties.
It is a common and often repeated lie that all those who do not accept the Bible and Christ are purposefully disobedient and reject God. This is how the Christian mind can somehow accept Hell and still entertain this concept that God is Love, God is Agape. Christians often, as you have NJ, indicate that people have chosen this path, consciously and with a fair and unambiguous presentation of the evidence.
The other lie, is that God gave us free-will so that we will worship and love him freely. RiverRat started this thread underscoring that people do not necessarily worship God out of free-will but because of overwhelming fear of death.
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Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2598 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 126 of 183 (410525)
07-15-2007 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Hyroglyphx
07-14-2007 11:00 AM


Re: Keeping focused on the OP
A strange thing that so many rare breeds could have arbitrarily come under one roof.
Are you being disengenious here? This is like saying:
"A strange thing that so many hard core zeppelin fanatics could have gathered under one roof [this one roof being the zeppelin message board]".
Why do you think there are quite a few here, NJ? It's not arbitrary, it's not strange. This message board is about the whole EvC (and practically all other debates in the world). Those "rare breeds" have an interest in the debate. And here they have a watering hole.
I mean, sheez, it's like saying, "wow, the desert is empty, but don't you find it odd all the life is at the water?"
Think about NJ. This is a watering hole for people who love to debate, and more specifically, for people who love to debate religion, science, ethics, politics, etc. It's no surprise we attract hardcore atheists and hardcore fundies.
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bob_gray
Member (Idle past 5099 days)
Posts: 243
From: Virginia
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 127 of 183 (410553)
07-15-2007 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Taz
07-12-2007 11:25 AM


5 foundations of morality:
I recently heard psychologist Jonathan Haidt talk about the five foundations of morality. I'm not sure if this is his idea or if he found it elsewhere but it doesn't really matter to the conversation. He does a pretty good job of explaining the difference between conservative morality and liberal morality. I'll post the link to his talk which is probably a little under 15 minutes but I'll summarize his main point.
The New Yorker
Liberals: Live in "Atom World" where Societies are created of individuals. The only moral principles you need to keep society organized are
1. Harm/care
2. Fairness/Justice
ie. Protection of individuals
Most of the world doesn't live in "Atom World".
Conservatives: Live in "Lattice World." For example: Extended families by marriage create a lattice of dependency and rank.
Morality is in part protecting family and groups and institutions. To keep society from falling apart in "Lattice World" you need three more moral principles.
3. In-group loyalty
4. Authority respect
5. Purity/Sanctity
-These principles provide protection of groups.
-Conservatives see value in structure.
When you look at morality in these terms it becomes abundantly clear why these posters have the views they do.
Tamanian Devil writes:
Between phat's war on other people's sex lives, nem_jug's continual comparason of gay people and animal, and your "hate the sin, love the sinner" BS, I haven't seen anything that would convince me that believing in god would make me a better person. I mean, come on, I'm the atheist here and you guys are the christians. You're suppose to be better than me, not the other way around. You're suppose to be the people who would fight for human rights and I'm suppose to be the bad guy who tries to take away human rights, not the other way around.
All these people believe that their brand of morality IS better for society and therefore is the correct one to follow.
I'm not sure what the bridge is between these two moral systems but until one is found there won't be any resolution or compromise.
For what it is worth the guy speaks well and I thought his talk was worth listening to. He also does a good job of explaining how humidity causes liberalism.
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Monk
Member (Idle past 4009 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 128 of 183 (410589)
07-16-2007 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
07-11-2007 10:33 AM


. we all know God, regardless of our religion. So we all know God in our hearts/spirits, it is the world, and religion that taints us.
Not true. We are diverse and there are many of us, more than 6-1/2 billion at last count. Not all of us know God in our hearts. Many of us do, many do not. To say that all of us do is naive and underestimates the knowledge and experiences of a large segment of the population.
An atheist will go around his whole life denouncing God or claim God does not exist, but I feel that when it all comes down to it, and you are on your death bed, and you are taking your last breath, I think that will change at that moment for you.
There may be some who experience a change of mind. Considering the millions of atheist in the world, it’s reasonable to surmise that a number of them would desperately reach for God in their last moments. But I disagree that your scenario applies to the majority of atheist.
Besides, the last atheist that I saw die did not have any sort of conversion. No conversions before he died that is. Can’t say what might’ve happened on the other side.

This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 6038 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 129 of 183 (410617)
07-16-2007 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by iceage
07-12-2007 7:28 PM


Re: Created to Worship
iceage writes:
Whoaa right there... no comparison. I don't accept that evolutionary principles sound "retarded" to an outsider. Natural selection is such a simple and workable concept that T. Huxley once commented "How incredibly stupid, not to have thought of that myself"! I know for myself, after having the fundamentals explained, natural selection just made sense and provided a satisfying explanation of the workings of nature. I won't deny the details are complex, but the principle are simple and intuitive.
I understand, but I know that arguments from incredulity abound nonetheless.
I like it, but it is not gospel!
It is the Catholic interpretation of the same Biblical passages other denoms cite. See, we Catholics like to think that if something does not measure up to reality, it can not be possible. Since there is no case of a person receiving an unsolicited visit from Jesus in the middle of the jungle and with no prior knowledge, we do not take the passages about believing in Jesus' name etc. as literal readings.
The bible clearly and unequivocally states that salvation is only through Jesus and only by being born again. If a good Muslim dies without accepting Jesus then they are hell bound per scripture. Hey what is that I just heard... oh ya a chorus's of Amens!
I'm not turning this into Apologetics 101, But 'salvation thru Jesus' can be taken a few ways.
If we are created to worship God (as Riverrat believes), and the God described in the Bible is the one true vision of God, then there would be a detectable tendency for people when approaching God to align their worshiping impulses towards the core beliefs described in the Bible such as a triune Godhead, the necessity for water baptism, the nature of the Holy Spirit, or second coming. There would also be a steady defection from counterfeit religions. There would be a detectable core agreement on a set of Godly principles.
None of this is relevent to what I said about 'being created to worship God'.
I take that to mean that men, just by existing, bring glory to God. I may also believe that the soul has natural urges to worship, or join, with its Maker, but that would only be the catalyst for its searching and varying styles of worship. The soul may yearn all it will, but it is destined for subjugation to what the mind believes.
I just saw all of the OT warnings in this thread. If I tie my comments back to the OP, I will say that if a soul is made to know, love and serve God, then it may be at any moment that the mind chooses to listen to the spirit. Death beds are one moment, but you can't get water from a rock, nor Jesus from Allah. You can only acknowledge that there may be more out there. And no, I am not comparing Muslims to rocks!
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iceage, posted 07-12-2007 7:28 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by iceage, posted 07-16-2007 1:24 PM anastasia has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 130 of 183 (410620)
07-16-2007 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Percy
07-15-2007 7:48 AM


Re: Some Observations
You believe that atheists and agnostics know in their hearts that there really is a God.
No, I believe atheists, and agnostics know God in their hearts, but can be deceived by the world into thinking He doesn't exist.
It is on your death bed, that you may experience a drop of everything that you were taught to believe in, and then the truth can come through.
This topic was only made by me to give people a chance to think about it, and do discuss it, if they have thought about it.
I do not refuse to accept this idea, it is what I currently believe. This discussion offers an opportunity for those who think differently than me, to present their thoughts, and possibly show me something different.
My whole existence on EVC, has been one of sharing what I believe, and know, while testing my own faith, and also clearing up all the dogmatic BS that us Christians experience. You see, I really don't want to be dogmatic, or ever be mistaken for a "fundie." I just want to be a normal person, that believes in Jesus.
o let's not go down that path again. I've given my answer. Accept it.
Oh, I do accept your answer, what I don't accept is your misconceptions and accusations of who and what I am. What am I really up to?
We don't need to go down any path. I don't have all the answers. Believing in God, does not immediately give you all the answers. If anything, it causes you to ask more questions. I have given possible answer to the question, if God is good....
Nothing in the bible would indicate that believing in God, is going to make your physical life any better. Just look at what Jesus went through.
Your spiritual life should improve, and your eternal life.
There were definite areas of my life that improved upon coming to know the Holy Spirit. Nothing anyone can say here will ever take that away.
Does that make me some kind of perfect person?
Do I instantly become some kind of role model for all to follow?
Hell no!
It is also unfair for others to put that pressure on me, and only shows just how much they could use a little biblical philosophy, and learn to forgive others. Also to abandon faith in GOD, based on what people to, is the most piss poor excuse that ever was. But I did it too, so who am I to judge?
Even Paul himself noted how poor he was at trying to be like Jesus. He notes the struggles between flesh and spirit.
Everyone here tries to make being a Christian into some sort of destination, and it is not a destination, it is a journey. No better or worse than the next persons journey. I am so sick a tired of the same programmed responses from everyone, placing Christians on some supposed higher moral ground than others.
Is it jealousy? Are people jealous that I had some kind of experience with God? Of course they will answer an astounding NO. But if they aren't jealous, then why get angry at me? Maybe if they dropped that, then they could experience the same thing.
Many people have experienced God before me, and many will experience God after me. If God exists, then we will all experience God at one point, possibly on our death bed.
There are flaws, and things of this world on me that I will probably realize on my death bed too.
All I know is what I felt from God, was so much love, and things that I can't even put into words, that I feel the desire to share it with others. In the spirit, and in the flesh (by helping others). No one has convinced me of anything to stop doing that, to date.
Is a forum the best place to do it? I don't know. But when my email was not hidden, I received many emails thanking me for my faith. Maybe people were to scared to actually post. I've even had a few thank you posts in here as well. I had to hide my email, because of the spam I was getting.
This post was long, and drifted all over the place, but I just want to help you understand who and what I am about. Why I even start posts. I never really have ulterior motives, sometimes I just want to hear what people have to say. You can take most of my words at face value, unless I did not express myself correctly. There are many ways to say the same thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Percy, posted 07-15-2007 7:48 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Percy, posted 07-16-2007 12:26 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 139 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 1:47 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 160 by nator, posted 07-17-2007 9:04 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 131 of 183 (410625)
07-16-2007 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by jar
07-15-2007 10:08 AM


Re: Created to Worship
You test the Holy Spirit just as you test God, against reason, logic and reality.
So, according to you, you cannot objectively prove the Holy Spirit.
jar, I will never figure you out. I really don't like what you have to say most of the time. You really rub me the wrong way. Perhaps it is your hatred of christians, or the christian cult of ignorance, and the category you put me into. There are many times you say stuff that makes sense, and many times you seem to contradict yourself. You seem like you want to be in the middle somewhere between being christian, and not. It's like a clever rouge or something, and then at the last moment, you can spring those words "I believe in Jesus."
If you believe in Jesus, then stop calling Him a liar. He promised us the Holy Spirit. It is when we receive it that we become a witness of Jesus. What does that supposed to mean? well we could start writing about it now, and never stop until we are dead. But once you experience it, you'll know. Yea, and not everyone that says they have experienced it, actually have. But there is no way to prove any of it. Most people don't even know He exists, even though He is there all the time.
Oh, and being closer to God, is always a good thing. That is why I mention it. Seek the Lord with all your heart.
Maybe we should start some great debate or something, so that we could clear some of this stuff up, and come to some mutual ground.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 07-15-2007 10:08 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 132 of 183 (410626)
07-16-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Vacate
07-15-2007 10:40 AM


Then what??? Seen it all, thought it all, learned it all.
How do you do that in an infinite universe?
Plus you are basing your decision on the constraints of time, where as heaven might not even have time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Vacate, posted 07-15-2007 10:40 AM Vacate has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34061
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 133 of 183 (410628)
07-16-2007 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by riVeRraT
07-16-2007 11:54 AM


Re: Created to Worship
So, according to you, you cannot objectively prove the Holy Spirit.
I don't know. The question was, "How do you know that it is the Holy Spirit?"
I am still awaiting an answer to that from you.
Perhaps it is your hatred of christians, or the christian cult of ignorance, and the category you put me into.
I don't hate Christians, I are one. I do oppose the Christian Cult of Ignorance and the Christian Communion of Bobble-heads, but it is not I that put people into such categories, but rather what they say, write and do.
If you believe in Jesus, then stop calling Him a liar. He promised us the Holy Spirit. It is when we receive it that we become a witness of Jesus.
How do you know when you have received the Holy Spirit and that it really is the Holy Spirit.
Oh, and being closer to God, is always a good thing.
Why is it a good thing?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by riVeRraT, posted 07-16-2007 11:54 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 134 of 183 (410629)
07-16-2007 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by sidelined
07-15-2007 11:11 AM


I could fish forever.

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 135 of 183 (410631)
07-16-2007 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by iceage
07-15-2007 11:24 AM


Re: Created with Fear
I keep making this point concerning this topic. If what you say is true 1) that we are designed by God to worship him and 2) the God of the Bible is the correct, why don't we see a significant number of end-of-life conversions "crying out to Jesus", from the Muslims, Hindus, Jews, pagans?
Do we really know what happens as people are dying?
Or after they are dead?
The bible says no-one enters heaven except through Jesus. Sometimes I picture Jesus in a basketball uniform, and a hoop behind Him, and He checks you the ball, and says, try to get past me
It is beginning to look more and more like you believe that "atheists" do not accept God because they are searching for joy or because of some stubborn disobedience to "face the truth".
No, I am not stating that at all. I have stated many times that I went most of my life being agnostic. I was not in denial, or was I avoiding the truth. Or did I feel like I was going to heaven.
How many times do I have to say this, and when will people stop treating me like a fundie?
If God does exist you would think that he would want us to be honest and courageous.
I do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by iceage, posted 07-15-2007 11:24 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by iceage, posted 07-16-2007 1:32 PM riVeRraT has replied

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