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Author Topic:   Why is belief necessary?
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 31 of 94 (155746)
11-04-2004 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 2:33 AM


RustyShackelford writes:
But this is what many scientists believe......that there's a good probability that we're the only sentience in our universe.
We don't even know if there is life elsewhere in our solar system yet, let alone elsewhere in a universe so big it might as well be truly infinite. We've only been able to detect a few hundred extra-solar planets. Of those, we've only been able to directly image one single planet (that I know of). We certainly don't know enough either way to say we're the only sentient life (depending on how you're defining sentience i'd say we're not even the only sentient life on this planet. At least apes like chimps are self-aware...i'd imagine other species like dolphins are too, but I don't know for sure).
But one thing i'd note is that us being the only life in the universe wouldn't make the universe our playground, unless you thought it was created just for us. I for one don't see the unviverse existing just so we can exist
This message has been edited by happy_atheist, 11-04-2004 07:23 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:33 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 32 of 94 (155747)
11-04-2004 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 2:00 AM


Re: ...Just save yourself some time and skip to the last paragraph.
RustyShackleford writes:
I don't believe this. There was a point in time, prior to a few years ago, that you DIDN'T exist.........so you know that it's possible for you to not exist. You can also get an idea of what non-existance is like every time you fall into dreamless sleep........
I'm actually with you on this one. I was going to bring up the lack of existence before my birth myself but you beat me to it I guess as Morte said it's possible that reincarnation is true, but I have absolutely no recollection or knowledge of any previous life. If something has had absolutely no influence on me in any way at all I don't see how it could have been me in the past life, since what I class as "me" is defined by my experiences since I was born.
However, if someone else cannot comprehend (or think they comprehend) non-existence it is perfectly normal for them to entertain the thought of an afterlife I guess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:00 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 33 of 94 (155753)
11-04-2004 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 2:33 AM


RustyShackelford writes:
Crashfrog writes:
Atheism is the opposite of vanity.
Not true.
Agreed. Atheism cannot be the opposite of vanity because the words 'atheism' and 'vanity' belong in entirely different semantic domains. To think that humans are created in the image of their God, now that is an appropriate example of vanity.
RustyShackelford writes:
You think you can destroy God with the logic of the human mind...
Wrong. Atheists don't intend to destroy something the existence of which they deny in the first place. It wouldn't be logical, would it?

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 34 of 94 (155828)
11-04-2004 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 2:31 AM


Tell me about it.
I just did.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 35 of 94 (155833)
11-04-2004 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 2:33 AM


But this is what many scientists believe......that there's a good probability that we're the only sentience in our universe.
Just as many believe this to not be the case.
You think you can destroy God with the logic of the human mind....
This is lunacy. How can I "destroy" what doesn't exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:33 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 94 (155834)
11-04-2004 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Morte
11-03-2004 10:50 PM


Belief in what? Self or Deity?
Morte writes:
As I stated a few months back in another thread, one of the main reasons I have a hard time believing in the God of the Bible is because of the emphasis on belief. See, the way I see it, I can't control my beliefs - if I see aspects of nature that seem to logically contradict what the Bible says (and for the sake of staying on topic, let's not go into what aspects), I cannot force myself to believe in its words. Even if I went to church every week for the rest of my life, and deeply wanted to believe that such a God existed (because, as an example, I wanted to believe that there is an afterlife of some form), I'm simply too skeptical/questioning/suspicious/[insert appropriate word here, I just can't think of one that fits perfectly] - it's just how my mind works.
Speaking to you as a Christian believer, I am not worried about your "salvation" at all. The reason is because I believe that God understands how your mind works and why you doubt the belief system.
Morte writes:
why would God not accept into Heaven those who simply could not reconcile aspects of faith with the evidence that they see?
And the issue is not acceptance of ancient stories...the issue is the open mind and heart to receive Jesus christ for who He is today...not 2000 years ago, although He is the same now as then.
In a similar manner, I cannot comprehend the portrayal of mere thoughts and feelings as sins that separate us from God. I cannot control my thoughts; why should I be condemned for them?
Again, the issue is how you relate to the concept of Jeus as He is to you. It is true that one cannot help what one thinks..but can one accept the idea that God is greater than they are and that God alone is perfect?
jar writes:
I would tend to agree in most cases. If it is an uncontroled thought I doubt that it would be considered much if any of a sin. The limitation for me would be an intentional act. If you set out intentionally to have certain thoughts I could see how that could be a sin. One example might be planning and fantacising about doing major harm to another.
Morte writes:
What I meant was to question why belief is necessary for salvation
And the standard answer is that God alone is the path to salvation rather than human effort. Belief in a source greater than anything that is humanly possible...a loving source that can be trusted.
my thoughts are generally more of a random flow of consciousness that I rarely "direct"
If you don't direct your flow of consciousness on a conscious level, you could be said to be innocent. Our subconscious is reinforced by our conscious and willful decisions, however. As jar says, "planning and fantasizing"...which reinforces a negative subconscious thought life.
If one meditates on "happy thoughts", the question becomes the source of these thoughts.
Belief. What is it that one believes in? Human potential and achievement? Or something greater.

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 Message 4 by Morte, posted 11-03-2004 10:50 PM Morte has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 94 (155838)
11-04-2004 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by crashfrog
11-04-2004 11:02 AM


crashfrog writes:
How can I "destroy" what doesn't exist?
Nothing greater than you exists? Just because you can't comprehend it does not mean that you or even you plus all human wisdom can place yourselves as the apex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 11:02 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 11:34 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 39 by lfen, posted 11-04-2004 11:42 AM Phat has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 38 of 94 (155847)
11-04-2004 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
11-04-2004 11:10 AM


Nothing greater than you exists?
When did I make that claim?
We're speaking specifically of God, not anything else that is greater than myself. I'm honestly not all that great.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 11-04-2004 11:10 AM Phat has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 39 of 94 (155848)
11-04-2004 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
11-04-2004 11:10 AM


crashfrog writes:
How can I "destroy" what doesn't exist?
Nothing greater than you exists? Just because you can't comprehend it does not mean that you or even you plus all human wisdom can place yourselves as the apex.
Phat,
Whaaaaat???? non sequiter. Let's say I said I can't destroy unicorns because they don't exist. How could that mean that I believe nothing greather than myself exists? Or how does that imply I'm placing myself at the apex of anything?
Religions are human ideas, stories, and theories. It's one humans opinion against another, or one groups against another. Seems like it's being conducted generally on the same level. i.e. homo sapiens opinions.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 11-04-2004 11:10 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 11-05-2004 12:16 AM lfen has replied

  
Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 40 of 94 (156001)
11-04-2004 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 2:37 AM


Re: ...Just save yourself some time and skip to the last paragraph.
quote:
So, you don't believe in any god, because no god conforms to your idealized concept of God........but you like the afterlife part, so you keep that.
Reread the first sentence you quoted - I don't believe in any God because no God I have heard of has not contradicted His own words with His own actions and/or within His religion, contradicted evidence that can be clearly seen to be true. Don't put words into my mouth.
The afterlife I believe in is dissonant to the rest of my beliefs - it is illogical and irrational. But I believe in it because I cannot imagine not existing now that I have a consciousness (if you think of solipsism - though I don't believe in that myself, either - you might understand the trouble I'm having imagining nonexistence). Cognitive dissonance, if that's what it is that makes me feel as such (I never did quite understand what it is perfectly in my psychology classes), is not something I control consciously.
It is quite possible that you are right, and I am believing simply what I want to - but the point is, that's not a conscious choice I'm making.
Did you convince yourself yet that 2 plus 2 equals 3?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:37 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 41 of 94 (156020)
11-04-2004 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by happy_atheist
11-04-2004 7:23 AM


Illogical logic
quote:
I guess as Morte said it's possible that reincarnation is true, but I have absolutely no recollection or knowledge of any previous life. If something has had absolutely no influence on me in any way at all I don't see how it could have been me in the past life, since what I class as "me" is defined by my experiences since I was born.
I was using the reincarnation more as an example. Honestly, I understand that the belief is not logical, but I cannot help but believe it. Most of the other atheists I know think I'm just eccentric ("crazy").
There's no simple way to explain it... When I think back to the time before I was born, I cannot think of such a time. My memories blur the further back I go. When I think of my conscious thoughts now, I can't imagine a time in which no such thoughts existed, even though I'm sure that even as a baby such a time occurred. So how is it possible that now that conscious thought could cease? I'm dangerously close to solipsist, but I do believe that the world can exist without me in it, just not that I can cease to exist altogether.
While the evidence against a particular God is important, more important to me is the issues of contradictions within the faith - in other words, I'm not the stereotypical "science-based" atheist, and illogical thoughts, while they can bother me, do not destroy me, because I do not define myself based solely on logic. I mention this mostly because, from the other thread I have seen him in, Atheists have less reason to continue living?, Rusty seems to think that logic is the only absolute for all atheists. Abstract thoughts are not my enemy. The fact that I have opinions, thoughts, feelings, a personality... is enough to convince me that there is something more to humans (and perhaps other animals) than just chemicals - I'm just not so convinced it's a "soul".
I will try to clarify later, as I have to leave at the moment.
{Edited to remove the extra "Thread" in front of the link, I always forget to add the "-" in the UBB.}
This message has been edited by Morte, 11-04-2004 05:57 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 752 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 42 of 94 (156059)
11-04-2004 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Morte
11-03-2004 9:11 PM


Hi Morte,
Why is belief necessary?
This is the biggest question on my mind right now, so I'm glad you asked it.
I can come up with several ways that faith in itself has undeniably benefited me. I can come up with a few more reasons why God might have deemed it good and necessary, but this still doesn't completely answer the question.
I have a few friends and acquaintances who have experienced personal proof of God in speaking in tongues and discerning spirits, but only after they had completely surrendered themselves to God in faith.
I wish that God could appear to everyone and break the natural laws he created over and over again so that everyone would have no doubt that he exists. But then the world wouldn't work the same way, and who can ask why the world must work this way and not another when we cannot even fathom anything outside of this world?
Perhaps this is one reason for faith: those who will be with God always, will always be discovering something new and unexpected from Him. Perhaps faith is inherently necessary for finite beings to deal with an infinite God.
But there are a million "perhapses" and we can never know a fraction of all the answers. If we are to know anything at all we must have at least some faith.
I have a friend who has recently become an agnostic and this is one of her problems with Christianity as well.
When asked who can be saved and how, Jesus gave a variety of different answers. Being saved is not a formula of semantics or works or solely faith for that matter. It is an individual matter between God and man. If we do not meet God when he comes to us, we are no different than the animals who simply fall asleep and turn back to the dust they came from. "...all have the same breath."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Morte, posted 11-03-2004 9:11 PM Morte has not replied

  
General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 94 (156069)
11-04-2004 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Morte
11-03-2004 9:11 PM


Hey Morte, interesting questions.
May I suggest the books Mere Christianity and The Great Divorce by CS Lewis? I think they will possibly provide an answer for some of your questions.
However, I'm presented with the idea of a loving, benevolent God... who condemns souls to damnation for simply not believing in the right idea.
In the Great Divorce Lewis shows through a fictional story how hell is the direct results of our own choices. I believe that no one will go to hell without making the choice to reject heaven. It is not a matter of accidently believing the wrong thing. At some point you will have a choice to accept or reject God, based on your own free will. (in The Great Divorce people get this choice after they are dead!)
I cannot control my thoughts; why should I be condemned for them? If you ask me, it seems that having such thoughts and still resisting temptation to act upon them is a sign of strength of morality, rather than evil nature.
I'm not sure what you mean... I can control my thoughts - everyone can. Thoughts become sin when we deliberately and purposefully think evil things - fantasize about about killing someone or having sex with someone, or just having a simmering anger and refusing to stop being angry and forgive someone. (Basically what jar said)
But - and here's the thing - that analogy isn't really analogous, they're not comparable. If you believe that Jesus took all of the sins of humanity upon Himself on the cross, why should His sacrifice then only take care of those who believe that He was divine?
In Mere Christianty Lewis addresses this issue. His take on salvation is that humans are in a state of rebellion, and are unable on their own to completely surrender their will to God's will. When Jesus died on the cross he was perfectly surrendering his will to God, and that experience can be transferred to us in order to make it possible for us to completely surrender our rebellious will and come into a relationship with God. (It's been while since I read the book so I'm not sure if I'm summarizing Lewis very correctly, but I think that is the gist of what he wrote) However we have to want to try to surrender in the first place - if we don't even try Jesus cannot restore our relationship with God.
Anyways, I highly recommend those books to you and to everyone.

If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Morte, posted 11-03-2004 9:11 PM Morte has replied

Replies to this message:
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Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 44 of 94 (156077)
11-04-2004 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by General Nazort
11-04-2004 8:54 PM


Another clarification
(Just in for a moment, but wanted to respond real quickly to this... oh and BTW, very much enjoyed reading your take on it, Hankdawg, will try to respond later.)
quote:
I'm not sure what you mean... I can control my thoughts - everyone can.
I was thinking of those who say that we are tainted with sin in the eyes of God no matter what actions we take in life because of the existence of such sinful feelings as greed, envy, and pride - we can suppress and minimize such thoughts, but I doubt most could live without ever even experiencing them. And... according to some, this makes us unworthy before we ever even had a chance.
{Edit to close parantheses... ack!}
This message has been edited by Morte, 11-04-2004 09:33 PM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 94 (156089)
11-05-2004 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by lfen
11-04-2004 11:42 AM


It may well be that religions are human ideas, but "Spirit" is not a human invention. Spirit is the internal life of God in a believer that proves He exists to us. By denying His existance, you place your own reasoning and rationality above His reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by lfen, posted 11-04-2004 11:42 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by sidelined, posted 11-05-2004 12:37 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 47 by lfen, posted 11-05-2004 1:07 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 48 by Parasomnium, posted 11-05-2004 2:37 AM Phat has replied
 Message 49 by PaulK, posted 11-05-2004 2:58 AM Phat has not replied

  
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