The Bible on Sex, Love, and Marriage

quote:

---

But it's obvious that the reverse must be true - marriage is constantly evolving because the Biblical model you espouse doesn't work. The evidence for this is that marriages under your Biblical model have a greater likelyhood of ending in divorce.

---

That's not true. Christian marriages in this country are more likely to end in divorce because they approach it the same as secular marriage but with Biblical expectations from the other spouse. They date and base their criteria for a mate on secular ideas but expect Biblical results which means when the letdown comes, it crashes very hard on the first landing where the secular marriages might get a missed approach go around.

If you start a new thread on the 10 cmmandments and social evolution or something like that I'll join you there but I'm on thin ice in this thread talking about it. I already told the admistrator that I'd back off of that subject so I'd better keep my word or everything else I type is bunk.You are pretty sharp in picking up which commandments I included and the fact that I left out the first 3. Very astute and cudos to you.Lizard

Says you. Care to back that up?

quote:

---

Says you. Care to back that up?

---

If you want a statistical study on all of the reasons why Christian couples end up in divorce and their expectations going into it, you'll not find it. If you will only believe that with hard statistal evidence Christians are no different than non-christians in how they approach dating and marriage, then this debate is over.You can then say that all Christians are practicing marriage according to Biblical principles and because they are divorcing faster than non-christians, the Bible sucks.If you look at the majority of Christian oriented study material on the subject of marriage being sold, the subject of marriage and how the sermons are being presented and how Christian psychology authors are approaching the divorce dilillema in the church, you will find that my statements are factual. You need to go out to the Christian websites and see this for yourself though because the research base is too broad for this venue. Try CSN radio for a start on the web and then follow the program links of several of the programs and look at the sermon topics.ONEPLACE.COM is another place where you can get the jest of how Christian pastors are addressing the divorce situation in the church.This message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 10-24-2004 06:22 PMThis message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 10-24-2004 06:23 PM

It doesn't seem to be that way for myself, Crash, or Schraf - it seems we all got married as a lifetime commitment of love, respect, and equality. So? Who needs a higher authority when you are committed to each other? If the only reason a couple stays together is because of fear of God, that is not a very healthy relationship...Your posts still seem very contradictory to me: You seem to be crapping all over modern marriage practices. Yet you also state that the Biblical model fails in modern times. So basically you are anti-marriage, seemingly because you are anti-divorce. I'm beginning to think that you, or someone close to you, went through a really painful divorce.[By the way, I've never heard of a "pre-num" - I'm pretty sure you mean "pre-nup" as in prenuptial.]

quote:

---

Still waiting for the Bible's helpful advice on love and sex.

---

You will find that the Bible's teaching on Sex is just as constraining is it is in marriage. The basic message that the Bible gives concerning sex is it is for the enjoyment and strengthening of the marriage between a husband and a wife exclusivily. Anything outside of this is either adultry or fornication.There are many stories of both adulty and fornication happening in the Bible, enough to address any social situation existing today, and none of these instances has the act looked upon favorable by the God of the Bible as it is documented.In American society today this approach doesn't fly especially since there is a huge industry dedicated to the exploration and proliferation of sexual product. Again, to slam the Bible as being rediculous in it's stance on the issue is misguided. Of course it is not relevant in today's culture just like it wasn't relevant in the cultures when the Bible was being written, such as the Corinthian culture. There was even a term used back then to Corinthianize someone which meant to take them to the temple to be with the working prostitutes in that towns form of worship.I think you could compare Corinth to Las Vegas in terms of the sex industry. They even advertise now that "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas". Yeah, sure it does. So even though this part of the book is around 1940 years old atleast, it speaks to a contempory situation in our culture and the Bible says that the only acceptable form of Sex is between one man and one woman within the boundries of marriage.

I might believe it, but I'd need more than your say-so. Certainly, what you say hasn't at all been my experience as a youth in the Christian church. Among my church community, which I have no reason to believe was much different than any other, attitudes towards dating were very, very different than secular attitudes. Well, if they're not, LB, who is? Even if only a small fraction of Christians were doing it "right", LB, we would still expect less divorce from the Christian group. After all I think we can be pretty sure that no non-Christians, or certainly not any stastically significant number, are doing it the Biblical way.Here's the thing. Christians who do marriage the secular way shouldn't have a different divorce rate than non-Christians who do it the secular way. If the divorce rate for Christians is higher, it can only be because the Biblical model, which no non-Chrisitan is following, is actually worse.It's inescapable. That's the only reasonable conclusion.

That doesn't even begin to constitute advice on sex. That's advice on marriage.Advice on sex would be something like "my wife and I can't seem to find a position that provides enough friction for me and enough stimulation of the clitoris for her. Any ideas?" Boy, I'd like to see the Bible answer that.

Crash - differences in the "courtship" process may be just as contributory to differences in divorce rates between Christians and non. The happily married couples I know were sexually active before marriage, and most lived together, or at least spent many 'nights' with each other.In other words, those "living in sin" were able to know their partners much better. My devout Christian friends who married having never slept together, sexually or not, often complain to me about how much their life, and their partner, changed after the wedding ceremony.I don't believed anything changed, I just think they suddenly learned much more about their partner that they didn't know before...Sinners I know who lived together prior to marriage generally report that nothing changes after their wedding day. Thus, I would argue that being a good Christian before marriage actually prevents couples from getting to know each other fully.

quote:

---

So? Who needs a higher authority when you are committed to each other? If the only reason a couple stays together is because of fear of God, that is not a very healthy relationship...

---

The Bible says that you need a higher authority to make it work because people will fail each other if left on their own. The Bible does not say that if you are married but not a follower, then you will get divorced. I have even stated the statistics and they were not 100% divorce rate for non-christians.Addmittedly, if the only reason a couple stays together is for fear of God, then that is not a healthy relationship - but it is still an alive one. If the couple did not have that then they would divorce if that was the ONLY reason they were together. But if the couple is truly holding themselves to the higher authority the Bible requires, then they will be working towards the standards that are layed out in the text. That is different from just staying together out of fear. And if they are working hard towards what the Bible teaches, the chances of them improving their marriage are excellent.However, if you have no higher authority other than the love for each other (and I'm not knocking any of you for this because it sounds like you did your relational homework and didn't do the infactuation gig and marry a body), it becomes a personal gut check time when one or the other lets you down. If infidelety, financial mismanagement or other issues crop up and you have no higher authority to hold yourself to, it's an issue of how much you will put up with verses deciding that it's time to fold you cards and walk.If I had to bet on 2 couples who experienced very bad circumstances in their marriages and one was like you, no higher authority but yourself and your love for your spouse vs. a Christian couple that was trying to go back to Biblical precepts and reconstruct the marriage, there's no guarentees on either succeeding but I would place my chips on the couple most heavily relying on the Bible for guidance.As far as you never hearing of Pre-num, you obviously knew enough about what I was refering to, to type in the correct spelling which was the only dificiency. I'll play it straight in here and debate but if you want to go playground mode and throw sand, I've got other things I can do tonight.

quote:

---

Here's the thing. Christians who do marriage the secular way shouldn't have a different divorce rate than non-Christians who do it the secular way. If the divorce rate for Christians is higher, it can only be because the Biblical model, which no non-Chrisitan is following, is actually worse.

---

It's in the expectations. Everyone likes to pick out the good stuff taught to them in the sermons but it's easy to tune out or forget the tough stuff. That's why everyone likes to quote the passages of the New Testament where Jesus talks about forgiveness but they leave out his very exclusionary workds about him being the ONLY way.

quote:

---

In other words, those "living in sin" were able to know their partners much better. My devout Christian friends who married having never slept together, sexually or not, often complain to me about how much their life, and their partner, changed after the wedding ceremony.

---

Yeah, they did change. People are on their best behavior when they are dating and when the courtship is over, they relax into more of the real them. That's what these people are seeing and if they didn't know what to look for when they were dating, they will get bit by it once married.That is one area where living together for a long time first has it's advantages because it's more difficult to hide those things. But since you are going to live together any way, what's the point of getting married because the only difference is a legally binding document. That piece of paper isn't going to make you love your partner any more or less. It just means that if a split occurs, it's going to get legally complex.

quote:

---

Advice on sex would be something like "my wife and I can't seem to find a position that provides enough friction for me and enough stimulation of the clitoris for her. Any ideas?" Boy, I'd like to see the Bible answer that.

---

I believe the Bible does address the Clit stimulation issue when it says "When you fast, do not ....." assuming that everyone would fast and that eliminates the weight problem, thus allowing both parties to come in contact with each other in proper fashion. This message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 10-24-2004 07:33 PMThis message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 10-24-2004 07:34 PM

First of all, Why the hell are you insulting me with this playground crap? What about my 'pre-nup' comment was immature? The first time you wrote it, I thought it was a typo, after you repeated it a few times I'd thought I'd let you know, and thought I did so respectfully. I suppose you'd rather walk around all day with spinach in your teeth rather than have someone let you know. Don't be so rude. But statistical and logical analysis (see Crash's comments above) show this to be false. Dead wrong. The relationship is dead. No love, respect, communication, trust? Dead relationship even if still together in name. Wrong again. Another generalization of yours that only stands if the 'asshole factor' is at play in the relationship. If a couple chooses to repeatedely disrespect each other, God won't help. When a problem arises in a healthy secular relationship, you just don't ignore it except to add it to a list of times you've been let down. You work through the problem, with communication and compromise and forgiveness.I'm beginning to think you have a very simplistic, almost robotic, view of relationships. Based on the statistics given above, you'd be more likely to lose betting on the Christian marriage.Again, your simplistic view of relationships is revealed with the logic in this argument: Secular couples don't work through their problems, but Christian ones do.Nothing in my personal experience or in the statistics presented suggests that this is the case. Do you really think that when a secular couple has problems they just throw up their hands, look at each other and say, "Well, there's no God, I guess it's time for our divorce, call your lawyer, you rancid piece of crap!"Because that seems to be your argument.

That's easy. Because you want to be married. No, but some regard marriage as a celebration of love and commitment for friends, family, and society to take part in. From you comments here and elsewhere, you seem more interested in avoiding legal entanglements than in building healthy relationships.