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Author
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Topic: What to believe......
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Hal Jordan
Inactive Member
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Message 1 of 174 (279826)
01-18-2006 9:39 AM
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Good morning! I have not posted much at all, but I read nearly everyday and I respect the opinions of many of the posters on this board. With that in mind, this is no so much as a debate as it is question (or series of questions) that have been weighing heavily on my mind. I'll elaborate if asked, but I was a Christian for 10 years, then after a long and difficult time examining my faith, decided there were no gods and lived happily as an atheist for another 10 years. Recently, as in the last 3 months, I have felt a strong pull toward paganism. I was not looking for a faith nor was I curious about in the supernatural again; I just 'felt' that paganism described me. Now that the novelty has apparently worn off, I am forced to question what I have learned; is it real? I do not want to debate which faith is the True Real Honest to Goodness faith, because I don't thing anyone could know that. What I'd like to discuss is why do some (most?) people feel drawn toward spritual things. I cannot provide any evidence that supports my belief that I am pagan, I can only feel that I am. How can I tell if I am making this up as I go? How can I KNOW what to believe?
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator
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Message 2 of 174 (280211)
01-20-2006 8:05 AM
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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 3 of 174 (280214)
01-20-2006 8:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Hal Jordan
01-18-2006 9:39 AM
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Paganism
Could you elaborate on what you consider Paganism to consist of?
quote:
How can I tell if I am making this up as I go?
What do you gain from what you believe and are you looking for something specific from a belief or religion? Are you looking for spiritual maturity or a religion?
There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-18-2006 9:39 AM | | Hal Jordan has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 7 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 9:11 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 4 of 174 (280215)
01-20-2006 8:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Hal Jordan
01-18-2006 9:39 AM
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Rejecting Christianity
I'll elaborate if asked, but I was a Christian for 10 years, then after a long and difficult time examining my faith, decided there were no gods and lived happily as an atheist for another 10 years. Since you say you'll elaborate if asked, I always have to try to understand how someone could once have been a Christian and stopped being one. I know it happens. It's happened to many here. In a sense it may even have happened to me in that I was raised a Christian and then rejected it as a teenager, but my belief before that wasn't very strong. When I recovered it many years later it was a powerful belief to the point of KNOWING it was true. I'm not sure how to make a question out of this, but I'd just like to know more about the examination process you went through and how you assess your prior Christian belief. Thanks. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-20-2006 08:32 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-18-2006 9:39 AM | | Hal Jordan has replied |
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Parasomnium
Member Posts: 2224 Joined: 07-15-2003
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Message 5 of 174 (280216)
01-20-2006 8:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
01-20-2006 8:31 AM
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Re: Rejecting Christianity
Faith writes: I always have to try to understand how someone could once have been a Christian and stopped being one. Sorry to interrupt, but your question is relevant to something I read just five minutes ago. Here's a pertinent passage from it:
quote:
What Buchanan and the creationists do is turn children of faith into young adult atheists when they find out he, and others, have been feeding them baloney about creation all these years.
Your thoughts? Added by edit: to make this a more meaningful post, I should add my own thoughts, of course: I think the quote is right on the mark. This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 20-Jan-2006 01:59 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by Faith, posted 01-20-2006 8:31 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 6 by Faith, posted 01-20-2006 9:02 AM | | Parasomnium has replied | | | Message 12 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 9:47 AM | | Parasomnium has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Rejecting Christianity
Sorry to interrupt, but your question is relevant to something I read just five minutes ago. Here's a pertinent passage from it:
quote:
What Buchanan and the creationists do is turn children of faith into young adult atheists when they find out he, and others, have been feeding them baloney about creation all these years.
Your thoughts?
Well, yes, that is the way it happens. People grow up in the church sheltered from many ideas, and when they eventually encounter them shorn of the Christian explanations, aren't prepared to answer them out of their own convictions. But I think a true faith will carry one through this. Even if it is shaken for a while, if it is real it will be recovered, and the Christian viewpoint will make sense in the end even if it can't be articulated to anyone else's satisfaction. I'm not a fan of ID's version of creationism but the article's statement that there is no evidence of design is ridiculous. Design is obvious to anybody who can think, in my not so humble opinion, and will think, about what the world is actually like. Evolution has no evidence for it either but people think it does, that's all. And I think THIS should be obvious to anyone who can and will think carefully about it. So many of the arguments I find here at EvC that people are convinced of seem to me to be straight-out denial of the obvious. There may be no way to argue any of this, to persuade anyone, and everybody will scream for evidence though the case has been made by perfectly sound reasoned argument over and over.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Parasomnium, posted 01-20-2006 8:46 AM | | Parasomnium has replied |
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Hal Jordan
Inactive Member
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Message 7 of 174 (280220)
01-20-2006 9:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 3 by purpledawn
01-20-2006 8:27 AM
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Re: Paganism
Could you elaborate on what you consider Paganism to consist of?
Certainly. 1) I believe that there is not a single True God, but many (Pantheism)if any gods exist at all. No one exclusive road, but many roads and it is up to each of us to find our path. 2) I love nature and really do feel different (and have always felt this way) in a way that I cannot describe when I am among trees and grass, as opposed to concrete and buildings. I feel at peace, but more than that, I 'sense' something else, like an evergy or something. 3) I have always felt aware of the changing of the seasons, but have always celebrating them in my own way. 4) Negative words really do matter, and more often than not, can come back toward the speaker. Of course, this could be coincedence. 5) I believe that after death, we go on, but on to what I am unsure of. Could be wishful thinking. These are some of the things that I believe, but for the most part (except for the karma and reincarnation), I believed these things as an atheist.
What do you gain from what you believe and are you looking for something specific from a belief or religion? Looking for peace and equally important, I am looking to make sense of all of this.
Are you looking for spiritual maturity or a religion? Good question; actually I was looking for neither. I want to understand and that involves a spiritual path, then that's fine with me. But I am NOT looking to be a part of a religious group. As it is now, I am a solitary practitioner.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by purpledawn, posted 01-20-2006 8:27 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 8 of 174 (280221)
01-20-2006 9:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by Hal Jordan
01-20-2006 9:11 AM
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Re: Paganism
1) I believe that there is not a single True God, but many (Pantheism)if any gods exist at all. No one exclusive road, but many roads and it is up to each of us to find our path. If you were a Christian for 10 years you should have learned the explanation that the "gods" are certainly real, but are the fallen angels who have had the rule of earth since the original sin and the Fall in Eden, until Jesus Christ defeated them. Are you familiar with this idea and how have you decided that it is not true? This message has been edited by Faith, 01-20-2006 09:30 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 9:11 AM | | Hal Jordan has replied |
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Message 9 of 174 (280223)
01-20-2006 9:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by Hal Jordan
01-20-2006 9:11 AM
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Re: Paganism
You infact sound like a pantheist. Having a feeling of religiosity around nature like you describe, doesn't have to be a religion as such. I believe in Christ, but I have feelings of religious nature around nature. I would be scientific pantheist if I didn't believe in Christ.
Here I prsonally think that you don't need to be religious as such. You can basically be in awe of nature, as it of itself is remarkable.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 9:11 AM | | Hal Jordan has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 23 by Hal Jordan, posted 01-20-2006 10:37 AM | | mike the wiz has replied |
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Parasomnium
Member Posts: 2224 Joined: 07-15-2003
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Message 10 of 174 (280225)
01-20-2006 9:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
01-20-2006 9:02 AM
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Re: Rejecting Christianity
Faith writes: But I think a true faith will carry one through this. Even if it is shaken for a while, if it is real it will be recovered, and the Christian viewpoint will make sense in the end even if it can't be articulated to anyone else's satisfaction. I can't help but wonder if you would have said that if you had grown up in another society, one where Christianity is not the dominant religion. Well, you might have, but the "true faith" might easily have been something else, wouldn't you agree?
I'm not a fan of ID's version of creationism but the article's statement that there is no evidence of design is ridiculous. Design is obvious to anybody who can think, in my not so humble opinion, and will think, about what the world is actually like. Not to derail this topic right away - so it's best if you don't answer this, at least not here - but I actually agree with you that it's wrong to say that there is no (evidence of) design. I think there is design all right (provided I can use the word 'design' in the sense of 'a purposeful structure', and emphatically not in the sense of 'having been planned'), it's just that I don't agree with the creationist conclusion about its origin. The mechanism of evolution has no need of intelligence to produce design, in the sense of the word I mentioned before.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by Faith, posted 01-20-2006 9:02 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 11 by Faith, posted 01-20-2006 9:42 AM | | Parasomnium has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Rejecting Christianity
Faith writes: But I think a true faith will carry one through this. Even if it is shaken for a while, if it is real it will be recovered, and the Christian viewpoint will make sense in the end even if it can't be articulated to anyone else's satisfaction.
quote:
I can't help but wonder if you would have said that if you had grown up in another society, one where Christianity is not the dominant religion. Well, you might have, but the "true faith" might easily have been something else, wouldn't you agree?
Well, but isn't this the same thing as asking if I would say this if I weren't a Christian? And of course I wouldn't. I would say whatever accorded with my other belief of course. But I say what I say because I am a Christian and believe the whole Bible to be the absolute truth. And a {Bible-believing} Christian who grew up in another society, where Christianity is not the dominant religion, would also say what I am saying.
I'm not a fan of ID's version of creationism but the article's statement that there is no evidence of design is ridiculous. Design is obvious to anybody who can think, in my not so humble opinion, and will think, about what the world is actually like.
quote:
Not to derail this topic right away - so it's best if you don't answer this, at least not here - but I actually agree with you that it's wrong to say that there is no (evidence of) design. I think there is design all right (provided I can use the word 'design' in the sense of 'a purposeful structure', and emphatically not in the sense of 'having been planned'), it's just that I don't agree with the creationist conclusion about its origin. The mechanism of evolution has no need of intelligence to produce design, in the sense of the word I mentioned before.
Yes, and this is a perfect example of what I meant when I said people deny the obvious. There is no evidence, that anyone will accept as evidence anyway, but it is just as obvious IMNSHO that there must be an intelligent Designer if there is design as that there is design in the sense of purposeful structures in nature. To my mind it is just blatant assertion against all reason to deny this. But how can it be proved? Apparently it can't. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-20-2006 09:43 AM
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Hal Jordan
Inactive Member
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Re: Rejecting Christianity
I think that quote is right on the mark as well, and I'd like to add that if I were interested (which I'm not) in somehow ruining the Christian church, or wanted, for whatever reason to declare war upon Christians, I would have to do nothing. The ones that speak for the body of Christ are mucking it up all by themselves.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Parasomnium, posted 01-20-2006 8:46 AM | | Parasomnium has replied |
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Parasomnium
Member Posts: 2224 Joined: 07-15-2003
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Message 13 of 174 (280233)
01-20-2006 10:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
01-20-2006 9:42 AM
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Re: Rejecting Christianity
Faith writes: Well, but isn't this the same thing as asking if I would say this if I weren't a Christian? And of course I wouldn't. I would say whatever accorded with my other belief of course. But that's the point of my question. You could be wrong in one case and right in the other, or vice versa, or wrong in both cases. But you could never be right in both cases. This means that you cannot be certain whether you are right at all. Not even blind faith can make you certain. And the very fact that so many others must be wrong if you are right, makes your being right a lot less obvious. You have no reason to assume you are in a priviledged position, you are an average human being. The religious beliefs of average human beings tend to be wrong, so you are much more likely to be wrong than to be right, as far as your religious beliefs are concerned.
it is just as obvious IMNSHO that there must be an intelligent Designer if there is design as that there is design in the sense of purposeful structures in nature. Do you think a radio receiver is absolute proof of intelligent design? It's fairly obvious, isn't it? Or is it? This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 20-Jan-2006 03:06 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by Faith, posted 01-20-2006 9:42 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by Faith, posted 01-20-2006 10:26 AM | | Parasomnium has replied |
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Hal Jordan
Inactive Member
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Message 14 of 174 (280237)
01-20-2006 10:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
01-20-2006 8:31 AM
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Re: Rejecting Christianity
I always have to try to understand how someone could once have been a Christian and stopped being one. It was not an arbitrary decision; it was the hardest thing I have ever done, in fact. How I stopped believing was the 2 or 3 year result of exploring my faith, trying to research the questions that I had. Trying to reconcile my faith with the questions I was asked while witnessing (without resorting to the bible, because let's face it, unbelievers did not believe in the validity of the bible in the first place) led me to start thinking outside of Christianity. For the longest time, I believed in both evolution (not to start a thread on evo, but IMO, the evidence was too overwhelming) and a creator. After time, I saw no need for a creator. It wasn't as if anything tragic happened and I was therefore 'mad' at God; I just didn't feel Him anymore, I didn't see any reason to believe. I was learning to trust in myself, my friends and family and my judgement. I became confident the further I "strayed" from Christianity and the guilt that I often imposed on myself (from years of conditioning IMO) lessened. I was NOT trying to disprove God, nor am I trying to do that now; I really do want to believe. The question is, WHY do I have this need to believe?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by Faith, posted 01-20-2006 8:31 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Rejecting Christianity
Well, but isn't this the same thing as asking if I would say this if I weren't a Christian? And of course I wouldn't. I would say whatever accorded with my other belief of course.
quote:
But that's the point of my question. You could be wrong in one case and right in the other, or vice versa, or wrong in both cases. But you could never be right in both cases.
That is correct.
This means that you cannot be certain whether you are right at all. That is NOT correct. I am quite certain.
Not even blind faith can make you certain. It is far from blind.
And the very fact that so many others must be wrong if you are right, makes your being right a lot less obvious. Yes, that is true too. Apparently it can't be obvious to others. If it were they would agree with me. That is in the nature of the thing.
You have no reason to assume you are in a priviledged position, you are an average human being. The religious beliefs of average human beings tend to be wrong, so you are much more likely to be wrong than to be right, as far as your religious beliefs are concerned. Logically speaking that makes sense. I don't claim to be anything but an average human being, but I do claim to be in a privileged position, not because of anything I am but because God mercifully allowed me to see the truth.
it is just as obvious IMNSHO that there must be an intelligent Designer if there is design as that there is design in the sense of purposeful structures in nature.
quote:
Do you think a radio receiver is absolute proof of intelligent design? It's fairly obvious, isn't it? Or is it?
I would say so I suppose.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by Parasomnium, posted 01-20-2006 10:03 AM | | Parasomnium has replied |
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