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Author Topic:   How did animal get to isolated places after the flood?
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 136 of 194 (386175)
02-20-2007 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by riVeRraT
02-19-2007 9:16 PM


riVeRraT writes:
But it all relys on measurement, which can never be 100% acurrate.
Do you understand the difference between accuracy and precision?
Suppose you're framing a wall. Which is more important - to have all the studs exactly the right length? Or to have all the studs exactly the same length?
If one is an inch too long, there's going to be a problem - but if all of them are a sixteenth of an inch too short, no problem.
"Objectivity" in science has more to do with everybody getting the same result than with anybody getting the "right" result.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by riVeRraT, posted 02-19-2007 9:16 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by riVeRraT, posted 02-20-2007 9:34 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 139 of 194 (386218)
02-20-2007 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by riVeRraT
02-20-2007 9:34 AM


riVeRraT writes:
Are all results in science objective ringo?
Yes. "Objective" meaning that it doesn't matter who takes the measurement.
A Sikh or a Satanist or somebody with any other "world view" has to be able to get the same result or it isn't a valid scientific result.
That's why you're wrong when you claim that data is subjective. It doesn't matter who the subject is. It only matters what the object is.
Edited by Ringo, : Spelling and conjugation.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by riVeRraT, posted 02-20-2007 9:34 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by riVeRraT, posted 02-20-2007 12:44 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 141 of 194 (386230)
02-20-2007 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by riVeRraT
02-20-2007 12:44 PM


riVeRraT writes:
So then what happens ten years later when you get a different result using a different method?
First, the person getting the different result has to explain why the result is different - i.e. why the new result is better than the old result, why the old method was flawed, etc.
Then, other people have to replicate the new result before it can be accepted as valid.
The result is not subjective because it doesn't matter who does the experiment. The result can be altered by the method but not by the experimenter's beliefs.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by riVeRraT, posted 02-20-2007 12:44 PM riVeRraT has replied

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 Message 143 by riVeRraT, posted 02-20-2007 3:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 144 of 194 (386265)
02-20-2007 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by riVeRraT
02-20-2007 3:54 PM


riVeRraT writes:
I didn't expect you to admit that the new result was subjective, I was pointing towards the old result.
Neither the new result nor the old result is subjective if they were obtained objectively.
Don't confuse "objective" with "absolute". That's where precision vs accuracy comes in.
An objective result is precise - i.e. all of the measurements agree. If better equipment makes more precise measurements available, that doesn't make the less precise measurements less objective.
The result doesn't have to be highly accurate - i.e. it doesn't have to be absolute. It only has to be replicable to be objective.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by riVeRraT, posted 02-20-2007 3:54 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by riVeRraT, posted 02-20-2007 4:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 147 of 194 (386270)
02-20-2007 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by riVeRraT
02-20-2007 4:15 PM


riVeRraT writes:
No but it makes the measurement subjective to the equipment being used.
"Subjective" applies to the people doing the measurement, not to the equipment they use.
If different people using the same equipment get the same result, the result is objective. If different people using different equipment get the same result, the result is still objective.
If different people using the same equipment get different results, the results are subjective. And if different people using different equipment get different results, the results are subjective.
Plus nothing can ever be measured exactly, because it is always moving.
You still don't seem to be understanding the difference between accuracy and precision. Exactness (accuracy) is irrelevant.
If the results are precise - i.e. if everybody gets the same result - they are objective.
(This is all very basic stuff, but if you really don't understand it, we should take it somewhere where it's on topic.)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by riVeRraT, posted 02-20-2007 4:15 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-20-2007 10:32 PM ringo has replied
 Message 155 by riVeRraT, posted 02-21-2007 9:11 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 152 of 194 (386332)
02-21-2007 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Minnemooseus
02-20-2007 10:32 PM


Re: God only (maybe) knows what this has to do with the topic (accuracy / precision)
Minnemooseus writes:
Now, what does this have to do with "How did animal get to isolated places after the flood?"?
riVeRraT gave an example of deer returning to Staten Island. Schraf pointed out that that anecdote doesn't constitute scientific data. riVeRraT replied that "everything is subjective" and I have been trying to point out the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.
That's how we got here - not saying we "should" be here.
I think you have the meanings of accuracy and precision turned around, or at least muddled.
I think you and Wikipedia and I are all saying essentially the same thing - I'm just saying it more clearly.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 157 of 194 (386359)
02-21-2007 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by riVeRraT
02-21-2007 9:11 AM


riVeRraT writes:
If a piece of equipment can only measure things to a 1/6th of an inch in accuracy, then that is the ebest we can do with that particular piece of equipment. Which may not be good enough to get an objective results.
Once again, you're confusing "objective" with "exact".
So what good is objectiveness if it could be wrong?
It's the possibility of being wrong that makes it objective. Each subjective person believes he is right. It is only when his results are compared to other people's results that an objective result can be compiled.
That is why I am saying that objective results are subjective to how we view things, and how we figure things out.
No they are not. The whole idea of objectivity is to eliminate the differences in how we view things and figure things out.

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