Treatment of the Bible as a historical text

hehtry this:
http://www.deism.com/adamandeve.htmfor an alternate version?

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

different.

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Cactus and Scrub
and yellow grass

fits the original topic post too ...

very well said.

this context?

quote:

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Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

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Isa 14:5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, [and] the sceptre of the rulers.

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Isa 14:6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, [and] none hindereth.

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Isa 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, [and] is quiet: they break forth into singing.

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Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, [and] the cedars of Lebanon, [saying], Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

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Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

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Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

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Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

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thank you for playing along.see, it's a title they gave the king of babylon. after babylons fall, symbolically, their ultimate defeat (sort of predicted by this taunt) is that hebrew child should rule them. this is the significance of the magi, the babylonian astrological cult and advisors to the king seeking out jesus. the sign in the heavens was that the king had been born in galilea.if that's not the case, explain THIS to me:

quote:

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Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

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that's not exactly what mine says. but it's still addressing the king of tyre... it's called symbolism. i think he's equating the king of tyre with THE SERPENT, symbolically. but i'll get back to you this one. rev = endtimes, and is symbolic of a certain roman emporer... the name satan is often attributed to anything testing in the bible. in some passages, his name even gets mixed up with god, when god asks men to count the people, etc.the letters of paul... at some point, "devil" got associated with satan. i don't know how. but it's still not setting him as an opponent to GOD, just MEN.i think i covered job, before.This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 07-01-2004 01:34 AM

looks to me like it's the christians mangling biblical doctrine: http://www.faqs.org/...FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/section-36.htmli believe some of the bible. i take parts of it with a grain of salt. i disregard certain books of advice (like everything paul wrote)you may have issue with this, but why are you believing 17th century fiction as being biblical?

ah, got it, i think."devil" first appears in this verse, actually. (it's nowhere in the old testament, btw). the word is of greek origin, diabolos, meaning "one who accuses falsely or slanders."it seems to be referring to satan in the passages, but is a relatively new word to describe him. however, it does not only describe him. it's a lower-case title, and means anyone who slanders.it in no way sets him up as the mythical "The Devil" who is an opponent to god. it seems to be mocking the king of tyre, the more i look at it. the chapter starts out in the first section, talking about the claims of the king of tyre: "I [am] a God, I sit [in] the seat of God, in the midst of the seas"there's a couple of problems, and why it CAN'T be talking about satan. number one is that satan isn't human. the verse above (2) as well as 9 say the person being addressed is human, and trying to take the place of god.second, the person being addressed is a MERCIFUL person, "though thou set thine heart as the heart of God" says verse 2. the description of calling him an annointed cherub was to provide the image of someone wealthy (and literally covered in gold and such) stretching his wings over the people of israel in mercy, as the cherubs of the mercy seat on the ark of the covenant, so as to take the place of god. annointed means he's a king. satan was never annointed anything, nor is he a cherub. he's an angel, a son of god (as job says) worthy enough to have a title, and a name.third, it's said that satan was power hungry, not money hungry. the description is of someone surrounding himself with riches, repeatedly. "By thy great wisdom [and] by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches" "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned" "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick"the sin is greed, not pride, as the first part might have indicated.satan can't die, as the verse predicts of the king of tyre."eden" is figurative, as it often is in the bible. he's saying the king has been made powerful by god. the created bit is similar to what jesus says of his roman captors, that they have no power but what god gives them. the mountain of god, however, is literal. heaven is never described as a mountain. christianity isn't greek mythology, at least until the new testament (rimshot). and god certainly isn't zues. he's talking about the king of tyre encrouching on holy territory, the temples, and mt zion, and god being displeased, and punishing tyre for it.tyre seems to get confused with satan a lot, i've noticed.but uh, you gotta read a little more carefully, because that's not what the verse is talking about at all.here's some more info, including some of the stuff i've written here: http://www.bbie.org/...iptures/B07Satan/Ezekiel28v13-15.html(a correction to the page, however. it states that tyre no longer stands. in fact, it has a rather booming tourist industry today, apparently. you can find pictures of it on the web, even)This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 07-01-2004 04:13 AM

This makes so much sense to me. How is this not a problem for christians? Thanks for posting the link Arach.

no porblem. poke around on the rest of the site, everything else makes a lot more sense too. makes me wanna convert. lol.but yeah, i dunno how it's not a problem. i guess most christians are polytheistic, really. i mean, most churches i've been too spend their time worshipping this guy named jesus, who was flesh and blood. since man was made in the image of god, that breaks the whole "not worshipping graven images" commandment.

Ha, walk into a cathedral or orthodox church sometime. There are images and shrines for mary, saints, you name it.

oh, trust me, i know.my girlfriend is mormon, she's taken me to her church twice so far. no staind glass, no crosses, no pictures of jesus. they didn't even pass around a collection plate. i don't agree with all of their teachings, but i agree with even less from the standard christian church. all in all, the most level-headed bunch i've been in.although, i'm still thinking about judaism. i'd just never be able to keep the laws...

Looks like you can remain Gentile and only keep seven.From your Jewish FAQ:

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Other nations can fulfill G-d's will with only [5]seven
commandments, rather than the hundreds required of Jews.

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interesting.

Correct. However, belial is used un the OT as the personification of evil. People are frequently called S.O.B.'s or Sons of Belial as an idiom expressing wickedness. Belial is used in Corinthians to mean the devil or the evil one.Beelzebub is also used several times in the new testament for devil or evil one or prince of demons or ruler of demons. Correct. But then he moves on to address the one influencing the king of Tyre. In Revelation we are told that he goes out and deceives the nations. Apparently the king of Tyre was either possesed or being influenced and deceived by Satan. This is similar to that passage I gave above where Jesus speaks to Peter and says, "Get behind me Satan..." because Satan was deceiving him.If you study the grammar carefully I think you will find that it is cleared up quite a bit.

the rest of the post, that you must have missed:

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the chapter starts out in the first section, talking about the claims of the king of tyre: "I [am] a God, I sit [in] the seat of God, in the midst of the seas"

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there's a couple of problems, and why it CAN'T be talking about satan. number one is that satan isn't human. the verse above (2) as well as 9 say the person being addressed is human, and trying to take the place of god.

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second, the person being addressed is a MERCIFUL person, "though thou set thine heart as the heart of God" says verse 2. the description of calling him an annointed cherub was to provide the image of someone wealthy (and literally covered in gold and such) stretching his wings over the people of israel in mercy, as the cherubs of the mercy seat on the ark of the covenant, so as to take the place of god. annointed means he's a king. satan was never annointed anything, nor is he a cherub. he's an angel, a son of god (as job says) worthy enough to have a title, and a name.

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third, it's said that satan was power hungry, not money hungry. the description is of someone surrounding himself with riches, repeatedly. "By thy great wisdom [and] by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches" "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned" "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick"

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the sin is greed, not pride, as the first part might have indicated.

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satan can't die, as the verse predicts of the king of tyre.

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"eden" is figurative, as it often is in the bible. he's saying the king has been made powerful by god. the created bit is similar to what jesus says of his roman captors, that they have no power but what god gives them. the mountain of god, however, is literal. heaven is never described as a mountain. christianity isn't greek mythology, at least until the new testament (rimshot). and god certainly isn't zues. he's talking about the king of tyre encrouching on holy territory, the temples, and mt zion, and god being displeased, and punishing tyre for it.

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the verse cannot be talking about satan. it, and the previous few cahpters, (and i think the next few) all address the king of tyre. chapter and verse? revelation talks about the end-times, not the ezekiel-times. chapter and verse?it portays tyrus as a cherub. not decieved by an angel. the angel of the lord addressing ezekiel tells him to tell the people to mock and then lament for tyrus. it says nothing about satan at all, or anything behind tyrus's actions other than his greed. contrary to popular belief, "the devil made me do it" is hardly biblical. this is exactly what got man and woman kicked out of eden, blaming something else. b@liya`al, sure.it means "worthless" and is NOT a proper noun. it's not a name, it's a word meaning "without worth" and is almost always used as "ben b@liya`al" -- "worthless children" or "'adam b@liya`al" -- men of no worth."corinthians may well ascribe the name to the devil/satan/whatever, but that's not the way it's being used in the ot. the word is beelzeboul, which means "master of the house." however, it is a play on the aramaic "baal-zebub" which means "lord of the flies." sort of figuratively "amounting to nothing." the name is however, usually attributed to a lesser demon, such as azazel is. satan tests. that's what the name means. study the scripture a bit, without preconceptions. it'll clear a lot up for you.