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Author Topic:   Why Belief?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 220 (199711)
04-16-2005 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by truthlover
08-19-2003 6:44 PM


Great Testimony, Truthlover!
I found this old post and I am impressed with your testimony. Allow me to repeat it here:
truthlover writes:
I was raised Catholic, then I read Spire Christian comics and Jack Chick tracts at 13 and I tried really hard to ask Jesus into my heart. I laid in bed probably every night for a month trying to figure out how to ask right or believe right or something, but nothing happened. The next day I wouldn't think about God at all, and by the time I did, I was frustrated with myself. So I gave up.
I read New Age stuff until I was about 20 (although it wasn't officially called New Age in the 70's).I believed in spiritual things, but I quit believing in God.
Then at 20 I got a Pentecostal boss who preached to me every day. I argued with him a lot, and I won almost all the arguments. When he had no answer to what I said, he'd laugh and tell me what a good Christian I'd be.
I set out at that point to document all the Bible's contradictions. After reading through the Gospels, however, I really liked Jesus. It was sort of traumatic, though, because he was nothing like the happy-go-lucky, everyone's-a-son-of-God kind of guy that Richard Bach had made him out to be.
Bach...the author of Jonathan Livingston Seagull, right?
I decided at that point that I really couldn't buy the "molecules to man" theory (totally on my own, no creationism influence). I also decided that the apostles (the Gospel writers) weren't lying. They saw something, in my 20-year-old opinion. Even if what they wrote wasn't accurate, they had at least seen something unusual!
(I'm aware that the thoughts in that paragraph could easily be demolished in an argument, even by me, but that was my 20-year-old opinion.)
Then, visiting an Assembly of God church, I was accosted by a Christian being a "good witness." I agreed to talk with him further, and we argued for two hours about whether God would send someone to hell and whether the Bible was the Word of God. I won the arguments so clearly, even he knew it.
After two hours, he said, "It's not hell and the Bible that matter, it's Jesus. Do you believe he's the Son of God."
There was a lot to influence me, including my Catholic upbringing. Reading the Gospels had won me over, and I said yes.
It's hard to describe the intensity of what happened when I said yes. I felt like I walked into a different world. In fact, it felt a whole lot like a very, very good high on pot. I felt that way for about two days, and with a little prayer I could bring that feeling back (less intense) for months afterward.
The next day, still feeling like I was floating, I promised myself I would never forget what happened when I said Jesus was the Son of God. I still haven't. The Christians got me to become a Christian and to adopt all their silly views and doctrines, which wiped out the great joy I had and the closeness I had felt to God. It took over ten years to be delivered from Christianity and to get back to that wonderful experience with Christ I had had.
Sounds like a thread unto itself, TL. Start one...tell us how you were delivered from Christianity (religion)
My experiences have mostly been like what I described, and I'm sure many would classify them as psychological, but they've been consistent. I picked up certain things along that Christian path that "resonated" with what I felt inside, and I clung to those as true. Eventually, back in 1995, I finally ran into people who felt the same way I did. They didn't always (or even often) think the same way I did, but they "felt" like I did, and so we have always been able to work things out together.
I live with 35 families and about 10 single people who all live somewhat like I've described above. Our life works, and it works incredibly well. It's hard enough to say what I mean by that, that our method of "evangelism" is usually to say, "You have to come and see." When people ask how to join us, we tell them, "When you absolutely can't live away from us, then come live with us."
Anyway, I guess I believe because following that "Spirit" that I received way back in 1982 has been consistent (with the experience of others who have the same "Spirit") and effective.
T.L. at the place where you live, do they even have religious services of any kind? If so, what style of preaching do they use? Is it just like a familial community meeting, or do they use Bible verses and such?
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-16-2005 02:49 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 220 (199923)
04-17-2005 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
04-16-2005 5:40 AM


Why Belief?
I live in Denver, Colorado and have lived here all of my life. I grew up as a typical "Waynes World or "That 70's show" type of white boy in the suburbs. My Dad was a home builder, and my Mom was kinda like June Cleaver. I went to church once in awhile as a kid, but I never liked it.
The only thing that I liked about church was Miss Elizabeth and her sister Miss Lucy who ran the junior church. They had a sort of a sparkle about them that was different from the rotary club shiny happy atmosphere that the rest of the church had. (not to diss any current churches, but hey...if the shoe fits!)
As a teenager, I started getting high and working lots of hours at a restaurant. My friends and I sometimes talked about religion as we puffed away. We wondered about things like the mysteries of Egypt, U.F.O. sightings, and occult phenomena. Our drug experimentation got us close to the supernatural side of things, but we never saw the good part of it...which I now know to be the Holy Spirit! That came later.
When I was about 32, this girl invited me to church. I went out of respect and also because I was bored with drugs. It was not as if I felt that I needed God. I realized, however, that I was drawn by something in that church! The people were kinda weird..they talked about Jesus and Faith as easily as me and my friends used to talk about Hendrix and Clapton. Still...they were a bit emotional for me.
The Pastor made perfect sense when he preached, though. the words were definitely reaching me. I felt like a split personality. Part of me wanted to stay home, get high, and watch Ren and Stimpy.(or go ride my mountain bike...I was in love with nature!) A voice in my head warned me about being a nutty church boy. I was being drawn by God Himself, though...and I did not know it!
One Sunday, early February of 1993, I was at church and Arlene, a girl I knew, talked me into going up to the altar with her. I was nervous! I had prayed the prayers before, maybe while getting high and watching Pat Robertson on T.V., but nothing had ever happened like what happened this time! My stomach churned, and I was embarrassed to go up. I decided to go, however, and as they prayed with me, I was changed forever that day!
I still remember it as if it were yesterday! A slight shot of what seemed like electricity went through me, and I was aware of a giddy feeling. I felt like Chester cheetah...Aiiiyiiiyaaaayaa. They told me, "Welcome to the family of God, brother!" I thought that they had slipped me a new drug or something....but I felt sane.
I knew that I was saved the next morning! I awoke literally tweaking with energy! This was unlike any drug experience that I had ever felt! I could almost feel the supernatural around and within me! Unseen voices! They cussed in my ear , saying "go ahead! &#@* pray"...so I did! They left in a flash! I felt powerful! I was in awe and somewhat in shock about what I was feeling. I knew that God was in me! I knew that the supernatural was real!
Later,as I matured in my second birth,it was more difficult to know when it was me being egotistical for Him and Him using me despite my ego! I knew that I was hungry for Christ, however! I wanted to soak up more and more Bible truth! Also, quite humanly, I wanted to be used by God to spread the message of His power and love.
It has been 12 years since I got saved. I have experienced organized religion at its best...and worst. I saw that the Christians whom I looked up to were not perfect. You know, all of us make mistakes in life even after we get saved. Our old nature will never be perfect. A good Christian whom I know put it like this:
This truth became clear to me, thanks to a missionary named Bertha Smith. Ms. Smith had spent 40 years in China, and when I met her, she was already in her late 70s. I shared with her something I was struggling with, and I won't ever forget her reply.
She said, "Charles, you are as good as you'll ever be. And you're as good as you ever have been. You won't ever be any better than you are." How discouraging! I wanted to walk away right then. Then she said, "But the Holy Spirit who is living on the inside of you will enable you and He will do it for you. You can't improve your flesh."
Until then, I had always thought that if I worked hard enough, I'd be a better person. It was a real eye opener to realize that our heavenly Father does not want our good efforts. He wants our cooperation with the Spirit within us. Since we cannot improve on what is natural, God gives each believer the Holy Spirit.
I still love nature, but I know that it is the Creator and not creation that I worship. I have engaged in arguments with people who try and disprove my religion..(my relationship with Jesus) I have slipped more than a few times and I still sin. The difference is that now, I am not a victim. I am more than a conqueror in Him!
Most importantly, however, I STILL know that Jesus lives, and that the Holy Spirit dwells within me!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 220 (203402)
04-28-2005 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by mick
04-27-2005 3:42 PM


When in Rome...
Hi, Mick. I will agree with you that children often take on the belief of their parents. In a wider context, people usually adopt the religion of the culture. Of course I am biased, because I am a Christian. I believe that I became a Christian not due to education or indoctorination so much as through a spiritual impartation.
Much of my theology is more of a confirmation from within rather than something learned from the Bible or a preacher.
Many Christians have had similar experiences.

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 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 04-28-2005 6:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 220 (203559)
04-29-2005 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by crashfrog
04-28-2005 6:07 PM


indoctrinate -nated; -nating 1 : to instruct esp. in fundamentals or rudiments : teach 2 : to teach the beliefs and doctrines of a particular group indoctrination \()in-dak-tre-na-shen\ n indoctrinator n
==================================================================
impart-1 : to give from one's store or abundance 2 : to make known
==================================================================
Crashfrog--you are right in that the terms are similar.
The indoctorination was also experienced by me. My point is that my salvation came first through an impartation. The indoctorination confirmed it in some ways, confused it in other ways.
My faith as to the validity of the original experience never wavered, however.
In other words, I experienced God through Him becoming known to me.(salvation experience.) This happened before any indoctorination took place. (apart from the culture)
One could argue that I was a victim of a sub culture and that were I hanging out with astronomers or hotel desk clerks with active imaginations, I may well have never experienced my salvation.
Perhaps I could speculate beyond the reality shown to me. after all, if God IS real, as I believe Him to be, no amount of curiousity will ever cancel out His reality.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-29-2005 02:05 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 220 (203629)
04-29-2005 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by contracycle
04-29-2005 7:22 AM


My claims of impartation are unsubstantiated according to your rational standards, I will admit.
Others who have had similar experiences will understand perfectly well what I mean, but, again according to your standards of verifiable evidence, I can not define this impartation according to your satisfaction.
Nevertheless, your standards are not the only standards that humanity need accept. Many of us accept our belief based on a verifiable objective reality within our acceptable standards.
You are right in that we need question how we arrive at our conclusions. You obviously have different methods of evaluation than we do, for many of you were once believers. this in and of itself does not delegitimize our "subjective" claims. The jury is still very much out on issues of Faith and Belief.
Schraff writes:
Then you became a Christian because that is the dominant religion in your culture, by far.
Many have become Christians even while living in cultural regions dominated by other religions. These instances are, I theorize, due more to impartation than sub cultural indoctorination.
Conversely, those who adapt Islam or any of the other religions while living in the Christian cultural world do so because of willful indoctorination. (There is no impartation in any other religion.-strictly an opinion)
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-29-2005 08:43 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 220 (203880)
04-30-2005 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Monk
04-29-2005 11:23 PM


monk writes:
...religion is man-made. A relationship with God is not.
Hear,Hear! Encore! Some things can't be seen but can be measured. All of our truth claims are beliefs and are unverifiable.
Think about it, however. Dark matter is said to exist because it can be measured by instruments. By its effect on other things, right?
Similarly, belief is measured the same way.
The evidence is not strictly empiracal, but it is measureable. Talk to a few hundred believers who have had experiences out of the norm and you will be impressed with their honest belief, even if you reject their proof.

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 Message 52 by Monk, posted 04-29-2005 11:23 PM Monk has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 56 of 220 (203940)
04-30-2005 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by nator
04-30-2005 10:33 AM


Buddhalicious
Are you a Buddhist, Schraff? Or are you merely presenting a rhetorical argument?
Schraff writes:
Did you really investigate Buddhism from the viewpoint that it was actually just as valid as Christianity?
Actually, No. My definition of belief is as an absolute. For me to think otherwise is something that I toy with, but I can not elevate my own intellectual judgement above my belief, as you have done.
Schraff writes:
No matter how "rightous" someone is, they are just as fallible and mortal and subject to the laws of physics as the rest of humanity.
You can speak of humanity as being subject to the laws of physics yet the stumbling block in your mind refuses to acknowledge that humanity is subject to the laws of god.
Schraff writes:
What I meant was that we do not need a deity to bestow blessings upon us, that we are whole and complete as we are.
To be correct, what you should say is that YOU do not need a deity to bestow blessings upon YOURSELF.
Schraff writes:
Why do you think that you are entitled to know the answer to (the meaning of life)?
And why do you believe that your logic is enlightened and absolute enough to tell others that they do not need a deity in their life?
All religions require some sort of effort or self effort to find God, enlightenment, or Nirvana except Christianity. Christianity is the story of how God found us rather than of our search for Him.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-30-2005 09:54 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 220 (203965)
04-30-2005 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by sidelined
04-30-2005 12:21 PM


What is the measure of a man?
sidelined writes:
I am also curious as to just what you feel it is that you are measuring among these people?
Several things, all of which are usually found together.
1) Similar belief and experience
2) Honesty...
3) Love for Christ
4) Acknowledgement of Spirit above human wisdom as pertaining to source of wisdom.
These traits automatically come together. Other traits that critics ascribe to us....
1) Right wing fundies
2) Ignorance
3) intolerance
Are not usually there.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 220 (203984)
04-30-2005 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Hangdawg13
04-30-2005 4:08 PM


Dawg Daze------------Why Belief?
Hangdawg-Sur Tre`s! How ya doing? Fancy running into you in a thread entitled "Why Belief"?
13 writes:
I investigated (Buddhism) from the skeptical viewpoint that it was actually just as invalid as Christianity.
Any religious persona is basically limiting and shallow. Shiny Happy Jesus People are shallow if they are personifying an image that they believe that they should be. Many famous Hollywood celebrities, used to public persona, became Buddhists and made sure that everyone knew about it!
I am known as a person whom always has useful advice for troubled friends. My advice is not based on psychology, nor educated counsel,but is a combination of spiritual impartation and life experience. I was skeptical of Christianity because I was skeptical that a living Christ could exist within me. Now that I know Him, my belief is strong and secure.
Everyone wants me to "prove" it to them. All that I can really say is for them to get to know me. If they know me, they will soon know the One who sent me.
I am not religious, though. Just your typical terrorist!

"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives."-- Anne Dillard
Every tool carries with it the spirit by which it had been created.
-- Werner Karl Heisenberg: (1901-1976) German physicist
I read the newspaper avidly. It is my one form of continuous fiction.
-- Aneurin Bevan: (1897-1960) English politician

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 Message 60 by Hangdawg13, posted 04-30-2005 4:08 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 67 of 220 (204072)
05-01-2005 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by nator
04-30-2005 9:55 PM


Re: Why Belief?
Schraff---I am about to find out where the rubber meets the road in regard to my beliefs. I have type 2 diabetes...have had it for several years, actually. My lifestyle has been steadily declining. I know what I should eat and how I should live, but I have been oddly undisciplined and defiant at discipling myself to make any changes.
Yes..I have prayed about it...but I am to a point of despair. I am at a point where not changing means bad consequences. And yet I cannot pull away from the cliff edge!
In my mind, prayer...and God...are all that can rescue me. I am unimpressed with psychologists. What would you do?

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 Message 62 by nator, posted 04-30-2005 9:55 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by nator, posted 05-01-2005 9:56 AM Phat has replied
 Message 69 by sidelined, posted 05-01-2005 12:37 PM Phat has not replied
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 Message 88 by lfen, posted 05-06-2005 11:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 220 (205257)
05-05-2005 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by nator
05-01-2005 9:56 AM


Re: Why Belief?
Schraf writes:
Doesn't your book say "God helps those who help themselves?"
Funny you should mention it. Actually, this famous quote appears nowhere in the Bible. While it is true that
NIV writes:
James 1:22- Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
we are instructed to listen to God,
it is not true that He only helps those who help themselves. The question is, can He help those who do not know Him? Also, is He divinely directing and guiding all human efforts? More accurately,does He help those who help themselves by trusting Him only?
Rom 14:7-9
For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Does this mean that God will not help someone who does not know Him?
( or believe that He is real?) That is up to His people who are here now. They are the ones who should
1 Tim 5:21... keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.
My friend and I were talking about this the other day. He brought up the point that too many fake "religious and pious" people will never lift a finger to help a non-christian in trouble. He believes that the ways of god are the ways of love and of helping the common man on the street. He hates religion, but he is one of the most spiritual people that I know.
So does this mean that God helps everyone? We believe that He does...and has...helped everyone by making it possible for us to thrive as His children. Here is where the inclusiveness of christian theology comes in. Does this mean that we are either children of light or children of darkness by default?
And I'll leave it at that...I will leave that one unanswered because I believe that everyone chooses to accept a supernatural belief as a source or to trust their own human wisdom as their source.
And who am I to judge the intentions of an honest heart?
Now...as this relates to me personally and my struggles with my disease, it is true that I am not going to get healed by sitting on my assumptions. I need to exercise, eat right, and take the proper meds. I am not alive only for myself, however. I am alive for a purpose which is greater than my self and my needs/wants alone.
At least thats what I believe.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-05-2005 09:03 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 220 (205335)
05-05-2005 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by crashfrog
05-05-2005 11:58 AM


Radio dials
Ever turn on the tv or listen to music.
crashfrog writes:
In Texas? Yeah - like everywhere else in our country its "jesus jesus jesus god god god" almost 24-7.
Thats funny, cuz when I turn on my tv all I hear is sex sex sex, money, money, money! Of course, that stuff is transparant to you as well.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-05-2005 01:42 PM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 220 (205722)
05-06-2005 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dan Carroll
08-19-2003 5:02 PM


i believe in my religion because it is the right one! Not to many people see it that way thoughg.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 139 of 220 (208100)
05-14-2005 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Brian
05-13-2005 6:21 PM


Re: Test and see..
Brian writes:
...and a great deal of it is caused by religion.
I would say that a great deal of it is caused by sinful human nature...which abuses religion. Were there no religion, we would not live blissfyully in an imaginary land with no borders and John Lennon. We would be as sinful and greedy and prideful as ever. It would express itself different ways. Perhaps, Brian, what you mean't to say was that much of the ugliness of humanity has been expressed through the blatant misuse of religion and in the name of religion.
Which I agree with.

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 Message 137 by Brian, posted 05-13-2005 6:21 PM Brian has replied

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 Message 140 by Faith, posted 05-16-2005 2:53 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 141 by Brian, posted 05-16-2005 6:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 142 of 220 (208571)
05-16-2005 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Brian
05-16-2005 6:40 AM


Re: Test and see..
Brian writes:
This sinful nature is really nothing more than a device for explaining why God is so useless.
No, it is rather an example of why God is so necessary. Humans are as barbaric now as they were 2000 years ago. Nothing has evolved. Nothing has changed. Nothing except that 2000 years ago, God so loved the world that He sent His one and only son that whosoever(who so chooses)to believe in Him will not perish but will have everlasting life. (Not just a brief chance at a mating dance to pridefully pass on ones heritage via children)
But then again, this is all a matter of Faith and Belief, is it not?

"It is as impossible for man to demonstrate the existence of God as it would be for even Sherlock Holmes to demonstrate the existence of Arthur Conan Doyle."
---
"Religion points to that area of human experience where in one way or another man comes upon mystery as a summons to pilgrimage."
---
"People are prepared for everything except for the fact that beyond the darkness of their blindness there is a great light. They are prepared to go on breaking their backs plowing the same old field until the cows come home without seeing, until they stub their toes on it, that there is a treasure buried in that field rich enough to buy Texas. They are prepared for a God who strikes hard bargains but not for a God who gives as much for an hour's work as for a day's. They are prepared for a mustard-seed kingdom of God no bigger than the eye of a newt but not for the great banyan it becomes with birds in its branches singing Mozart. They are prepared for the potluck supper at First Presbyterian but not for the marriage supper of the lamb".
Frederick Buechner

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 Message 141 by Brian, posted 05-16-2005 6:40 AM Brian has replied

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