Sorry for the delay guys. I've been busy in another thread.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
The scope of these rules, and the universaility of their acceptance within most world religions within one form or another seems to indicate that humanity is generally agreed that human nature is flawed in these directions (even if they can't necessarilly agree on the solution for correcting these situations).
Brian writes:
I would remove 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' from your list as God quite explicitly commands people to kill, Joshua for example, so this commandment is not a rigid one.
Well...some would argue that a better translation would be something like "you will not murder" -- basically implying that in certain situations it is considered acceptable to terminate another if they've broken certain commandments.
Don't get me wrong though.
I personally do not agree with capital punishment. I think it's wrong. Consequently, I readilly admit that the Book of Joshua presents some of the most gruesome behaviors for the Israelites and God who apparently commanded them to act the way they did.
Indeed, if there is truth to be found in these strories, then they present quite a contridiciton to the "God is love" theme. I will not attempt to defend these parts of Scripture because I probably would have not done these things if I was in their shoes...er....sandals -- though it is difficult to say how I would have acted if I were raised in another culture and time.
Having said that, this still doesn't change the fact that killing is wrong. Likewise, it doesn't change the fact that, had even the Israelites been true to their own devotion (and Christians too I will add), this world would be a better place. Even secular humanists agree with some aspects of the truth expressed within the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill."
Brian writes:
I would also remove 'Thou Shalt Not Steal, because it is not a rigid one either as God also commands people to steal other people's property. Palestine would be the prime example of this. And we know full well that many people worked extra hard to take a great deal of land off the Palestinians based on the Conquest myth.
Do you at least agree that stealing is wrong?
Regardless of whether people were hypocritical about their own faith, the fact still remains that if people would obey these simple religious thoughts, the world would be a much better place.
Brian writes:
I would also remove 'Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness' as God Himself is happy to lie to people, a la King Ahab
Details please? It doesn't ring a bell.
Brian writes:
I also suppose those who kill, steal, or lie, also dishonour their parents in a way, so perhaps we should remove this too?
Well, I think this is a bit of a stretch to be honest. Surely the people who do this dishonor their parents indirectly. But the perpetrators are usually not intending to kill, steal, or lie specifically to dishonor their parents. I think it's rare at best.
Brian writes:
So, it doesn't really leave many religious elements.
Sure it does. We're still left with the fact that Scriptures state that these things are wrong. Even if those who were supposed to obey them didn't follow them, this doesn't change the fact that it's still wrong to act this way.
Brian writes:
Its fine and well to say that atrocities reject these religious elements but the God of the Old testament explicitly commands peole to break most of them. So, if God can sanction Joshua's slaughtering of thousands of innocent people then why should killing be considered 'unreligious'?
Because the Scriptures say it is. In other words, if the Scriptures say that killing is sinful, and the Israelites proceeded to kill thousands of innocent people in the name of God, then the Scriptures are presenting the Israelites as sinful people just like all other people.
Consequently, the nations that the Israelites were sent up against in Josua's time were quite sick people. They sacrificed their own children to Molech among other things. It may well be very possible that God knew that these people's cultures had degraded to a point simply beyond redemption -- a point where allowing them to exist would have resulted in much more evil than allowing them to live.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
The scope of these rules, and the universaility of their acceptance within most world religions within one form or another seems to indicate that humanity is generally agreed that human nature is flawed in these directions.
Brian writes:
Wouldn't you consider that it is just because humans are prone to these 'weaknesses' that the Bible authors made them into the commandments?
Well...um...yeah...
I'm not sure what you mean?
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Even secular societies seems to mirror an loose acceptance of these 7 "broken points" above -- although, again, the solution to preventing and correcting these situations diverge sharply from philosopby to philosophy.
Brian writes:
But we dont get secular societies attempting genocide on another society because of religion (Cathars for example).
You do realize the attrocities that have conducted under communist China and communist Russia?
You're right. We've gotten secular societies attempting genocide on both secular societies and societies because of their religion.
Brian writes:
Atheists do not kill in the name of a God, many theists do, and will continue to do so.
Many theists do?
Do you have have any stats with which you can compare the number of murders by theists in contrast to the number of murders by athiests?
Brian writes:
If killing is so unreligious then why have Bishops blessed so many armies before they go into battle? Why don't these bishops declare how ungodly killing is?
Some have. Actually,
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
On the flip-side of the argument, I guess I'd agree with you to some extant. However, these religions themselves usually define exactly what they're doing wrong so that they may correct themselves.
Brian writes:
And then go right on making the same mistakes?
Brian, I guess yu're not really interested in a rational discourse.
Are you saying that athiests do any better than theists or polytheists?
I honestly don't know. For the sake of discussion, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. But I'd like to see the statistics you're using to draw these conclusions.
Brian writes:
Furthermore, as Faith and Phatboy note, simply removing religion from society won't remove the fact that people still tend to do things wrong.
Brian writes:
I quite agree and it would be silly of me to suggest this, that's why I said a great deal of suffering would be removed.
Yes. And it might be quite silly to assume that it would even remove a "great deal of suffering" for all we know. It seems to me that anyone who used their religion to inflict pain on the world is probably going to inflict pain on the world even if they didn't have a religion.
Brian writes:
We wouldn't have people blowing themselves up in the name of Allah, or doctors at abortion clinics being murdered, or a whole range of other horrendous events.
Let me ask you a question then: what crimes do you think would still remain if religion were "hypothetically" removed from all cultures?
Mr. Ex nihilo writes:
When things go wrong, people will usually still be guilty of 1) not honoring their father and mother, 2) killing, 3) committing adultery on their S.O., 4) stealing, 5) lying, 6) desiring their neighbor's S.O. lustfully, and/or 7) desiring their neighbor's goods greedilly...or some combination of these factors.
It seems to me that all these things have a very human component to their causality -- not God or gods.
Brian writes:
But, as I say, we have the Old Testament God explicitly commanding humans to kill, rape, and steal. So, religious types can find justification in these commands.
Sure they can. And secular whackos can find justification for doing odd things by litening to records backwards and other crap like that.
Does that mean that we should get rid of rock albums. I love Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd -- but I have no intentions of listening to their records backwards to hear a "secret message". I certainly don't have any intentions on acting according to any "secret messages" that may or may not exist either.
The point is this, for someone to act in a crazy way based on a rock album, or a role-playing game, or a Harry Potter movie, or anything for that matter -- they have to be pretty messed up to begin with.
Brian writes:
Also, how many people are homophobic based soley on their reading of the Bible?
I don't know.
How may people are not homophobic based on their reading of the Scriptures?
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Clearly the cause of all this pain and suffering is human in origin -- not divine.
Brian writes:
Well, ultimately, I would agree, but I believe that humans created god and not vice versa.
That's fine. I disagree, but I'm not here to convince you that God exists.
Brian writes:
I also agree that humans frequently misuse religion for their own ends, but if that religion wasn't there then would they really find that many other excuses to carry out atrocities?
Well...hmmm...how about the French Revolution...or the atrocities conducted under the early stages of Communist China...or the religious persecution that transpired under communist Russia?
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
And if all the pain and suffering starts with humanity, I don't really see how removing religious influences will alleviate this suffering at all.
Brian writes:
The thing about religion is that it is a very powerful driving force...
I agree...
Brian writes:
...people become obsessed with following their god and I cannot think of a greater motivation than thinking that you are serving this greater being.
Again, I agree.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
The same old things which cause pain and suffering will most likely move in to fill the void left open by 'religious crimes' after all these religions has been removed.
Brian writes:
Well, we won't know this for sure because there always will be religions, its a fact of life.
Well..we can look at a few statistics and see what happened during certains times in recent secular history.
How about the French Revolution?
Source writes:
The period of the French Revolution in the history of France covers the years between 1789 and 1799, in which democrats and republicans overthrew the absolute monarchy and the Roman Catholic Church was forced to undergo radical restructuring. While France would oscillate among republic, empire, and monarchy for 75 years after the First Republic fell to a coup by Napoleon Bonaparte, the revolution nonetheless spelled a definitive end to the ancien rome, and eclipses both subsequent revolutions in France in the popular imagination.
Source writes:
The Committee of Public Safety came under the control of Maximilien Robespierre, and the Jacobins unleashed the Reign of Terror (1793 - 1794). At least 1200 people met their deaths under the guillotine - or otherwise - after accusations of counter-revolutionary activities. The slightest hint of counter-revolutionary thoughts or activities (or, as in the case of Jacques Hbert, revolutionary zeal exceeding that of those in power) could place one under suspicion, and the trials did not proceed over-scrupulously.
Source writes:
1793 marked a year that could have been prevented, a period that should never have befallen the liberated citizens of France. Mirabeau warned that the destruction of the Monarchy would plunge the country into anarchy and his words rang true. France was not prepared for such social and political upheaval, and the resulting shift towards a republic would change the country forever. The Jacobins discarded their holy bible, the constitution, in order to ensure the security and stability of the country. Not only did their hasty actions backfire, but the tens of thousands of lives that perished during their reign symbolized the radical stage of the revolution in all its bloody glory.
How about Communist Russia?
From 1917 to Stalin's death in 1953, the Soviet Union, shot, tortured, beat, froze or starved to death at least 40 million of its people.
Some Russian historians claim the true figure is even higher --with some agreeing that Lennin laid the ideological groundwork for 50 million to 100 million murders in the name of 20th-century Communism.
Incidently, under Lenin and Stalin, the Soviet government became the greatest mass-murderer in history. Lenin's collectivization and purges of 1921-1922 {two years alone} caused 4 million deaths. In 1932 {one year alone}, Stalin ordered the Ukraine starved to enforce collectivization and crush Ukrainian nationalism. At least 8 million Ukrainians were murdered. Others resorted to cannibalism.
Consequently, in an ugly spasm of deja-vu, Russian troops slaughtered 80,000 Chechen civilians over the past two years.
How about recent Communist China?
In China, Great Helmsman Mao Zedong had 2 million 'class enemies' shot when the communists took control. Another million Tibetans and Turkestani Muslims were 'liquidated' from 1950-1975. During Mao's crazy Great Leap Forward, in which China's farmers were collectivized en masse, an estimated 30 million or more people starved to death. Another two million are said to have been killed in Mao's Cultural Revolution.Total: 35 million dead.
News Source writes:
Communist China, Singapore: Two Countries, One System?
Singapore Arrests Two Falun Gong Practitioners for Exposing The CCP’s Persecution in China
PRESS STATEMENT
NEW YORK (FDI) -- On April 27 in Singapore, two women were found guilty on seven counts, including assembly without a permit and possession and distribution of illegal VCDs. Their crime? Handing out materials to passers-by in a public park that document the human rights atrocities inflicted upon those who practice Falun Gong in China.
These same materials are handed out to the public on a daily basis in nearly every major city across North America, Europe, and Australia as well as parts of the Middle East, South America, and Africa.
Up until two days ago, only in Communist China would people be punished by authorities for distributing these materials. How is it that Singapore's justice system would punish people for speaking the truth?
It is a fact well-known throughout the world that the Chinese Communist Party has been waging a campaign of suppression against Falun Gong inside China for the past 6 years -- a campaign that is vast in scope and horrifying in its implementation. Human rights workers have documented over 42,000 cases of severe abuse or torture in prison camps and detention centers of Falun Gong practitioners. Thousands are dead. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, languish in labor camps and detention centers throughout China — many sent there merely for letting their fellow citizens know about the abuses unleashed on Falun Gong.
Brainwashing centers have been established all across China to use torture — psychological and physical — to destroy people’s beliefs and implant the CCP line into their hearts and souls... a process often leaving people psychologically devastated, if not dead. Both the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal, as with others, have reported on these tactics and their pervasiveness. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have documented much of this.
It is another well-known fact that China’s campaign to eradicate Falun Gong does has not stopped at China’s borders. Government officials from the city and community levels on up to the federal and top levels have reported being approached by Chinese officials on numerous occasions, asking for cooperation against Falun Gong and suppressing news about the deaths and torture in China (link). Considerable financial and political pressure is brought to bear by the Chinese consulate officials, revealing a systematic, worldwide campaign that reaches into cities and industries all over the world.
It is, therefore, appalling and disturbing that in Singapore — a society that is supposedly governed by rule of law — two Falun Gong practitioners would be found "guilty" and fined simply for giving away CDs and information about China's persecution of Falun Gong for free to the public. Defense counsel for the two accused women has stressed that they were merely exercising their Constitutional rights, and such rights expressed peacefully and orderly should not be curtailed by any other law of the land.
The two women have, understandably, refused to pay the fines imposed on them under these circumstances, and so are serving jail sentences. We are told at least one of them is now on hunger strike to protest this injustice.
This incident makes Singapore the first country outside China to charge peaceful Falun Gong practitioners and send them to jail under such circumstances. It has also effectively made the international community question the legal and justice systems of Singapore, where it is clear justice was not served. Lastly, it raises questions whether or not such an act aims at complying with pressure from Beijing or serves as a political gesture to woo Chinese authorities.
We call upon the government of Singapore to reverse this decision and handle this case justly in accordance with the law. No government should sacrifice freedoms and liberty for the mere purpose of currying favor with the Communist regime in Beijing. Any short-term benefits such actions would reap are vastly overshadowed by the damage done to Singapore's rule of law, its reputation in the international community and the well-being of its people.
# # #
PRESS STATEMENT - Apr. 29, 2005
Falun Dafa Information Center,
Falun Dafa Information Center | All About Falun Gong
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Background
Falun Gong, also known as Falun Dafa (about), is a practice of meditation and exercises with teachings based on the universal principle of "Truthfulness-Compassion-Tolerance." Practiced in over 50 countries world-wide, Falun Gong has roots in traditional Chinese culture. With government estimates of as many as 100 million practicing Falun Gong, China's Communist leader Jiang Zemin outlawed the peaceful practice in July 1999 (report). Since that time, Jiang's regime has intensified its propaganda campaign to turn public opinion against the practice while imprisoning, torturing and even murdering those who practice it. The Falun Dafa Information Center has verified details of 1,804 deaths (reports / sources) since the persecution of Falun Gong in China began in 1999. In October 2001, however, Government officials inside China reported that the actual death toll was well over 1,600. Expert sources now estimate that figure to be much higher. Hundreds of thousands have been detained, with more than 100,000 being sentenced to forced labor camps, typically without trial.
There's more.
In the early 1960's, 600,000 ethnic Chinese were massacred in Indonesia by government-encouraged mobs and soldiers.
In the 1980's, Ethiopia's marxist regime denied seeds to 'capitalist' farmers, causing a million people to starve to death.
Brian, I can sympathise with what you're saying. But I don't think removing religion is going to make humanity any better. The specific upheavals noted above (conducted by secularists without a "religious" agenda) seems to indicate otherwise in my opinion.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 05-19-2005 10:54 PM
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