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Author Topic:   Why Belief?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 220 (52199)
08-25-2003 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by nator
08-24-2003 11:26 AM


I had kind of a similar experience - my church more or less "told" me that I had to judge those who believed or lived differently than me - that I had to believe that Buddists and homosexuals were hell-bound.
I didn't want to, and the evidence clearly was that 1) Christians couldn't prove that they were any more right than anybody else, and 2) homosexuals that I knew seemed like just-fine people.
As a Minnesotan, condemning people who weren't harming me just didn't sit well. Not that that lead immediately to atheism, but it was probably the start.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by nator, posted 08-24-2003 11:26 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by nator, posted 08-25-2003 10:40 PM crashfrog has not replied
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 17 of 220 (52238)
08-25-2003 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by crashfrog
08-25-2003 5:35 PM


Even as a little kid, long before I read Gloria Steinem , I felt it was just unfair and nonsensical for there to only be male priests in the Catholic Church.
What was wrong with women? How come they weren't good enough to have the important jobs? I wanted to be one of those kids that got to help out the priest and the deacon with the ceremony, but of course there were only altar boys, never altar girls!
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-16-2005 02:42 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2003 5:35 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4369 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 18 of 220 (52249)
08-26-2003 12:02 AM


Jesus liked chicks...and he hung around hookers

  
itsme
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 220 (52254)
08-26-2003 12:30 AM


Jesus liked chicks...and he hung around hookers
I suppose that is true, although it is not acknowledged very often.
What relevance does that have?

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4369 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 20 of 220 (52256)
08-26-2003 1:03 AM


quote:
What relevance does that have?
That is one of the reasons why one might subscribe to Christianity
------------------
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes."

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 220 (199711)
04-16-2005 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by truthlover
08-19-2003 6:44 PM


Great Testimony, Truthlover!
I found this old post and I am impressed with your testimony. Allow me to repeat it here:
truthlover writes:
I was raised Catholic, then I read Spire Christian comics and Jack Chick tracts at 13 and I tried really hard to ask Jesus into my heart. I laid in bed probably every night for a month trying to figure out how to ask right or believe right or something, but nothing happened. The next day I wouldn't think about God at all, and by the time I did, I was frustrated with myself. So I gave up.
I read New Age stuff until I was about 20 (although it wasn't officially called New Age in the 70's).I believed in spiritual things, but I quit believing in God.
Then at 20 I got a Pentecostal boss who preached to me every day. I argued with him a lot, and I won almost all the arguments. When he had no answer to what I said, he'd laugh and tell me what a good Christian I'd be.
I set out at that point to document all the Bible's contradictions. After reading through the Gospels, however, I really liked Jesus. It was sort of traumatic, though, because he was nothing like the happy-go-lucky, everyone's-a-son-of-God kind of guy that Richard Bach had made him out to be.
Bach...the author of Jonathan Livingston Seagull, right?
I decided at that point that I really couldn't buy the "molecules to man" theory (totally on my own, no creationism influence). I also decided that the apostles (the Gospel writers) weren't lying. They saw something, in my 20-year-old opinion. Even if what they wrote wasn't accurate, they had at least seen something unusual!
(I'm aware that the thoughts in that paragraph could easily be demolished in an argument, even by me, but that was my 20-year-old opinion.)
Then, visiting an Assembly of God church, I was accosted by a Christian being a "good witness." I agreed to talk with him further, and we argued for two hours about whether God would send someone to hell and whether the Bible was the Word of God. I won the arguments so clearly, even he knew it.
After two hours, he said, "It's not hell and the Bible that matter, it's Jesus. Do you believe he's the Son of God."
There was a lot to influence me, including my Catholic upbringing. Reading the Gospels had won me over, and I said yes.
It's hard to describe the intensity of what happened when I said yes. I felt like I walked into a different world. In fact, it felt a whole lot like a very, very good high on pot. I felt that way for about two days, and with a little prayer I could bring that feeling back (less intense) for months afterward.
The next day, still feeling like I was floating, I promised myself I would never forget what happened when I said Jesus was the Son of God. I still haven't. The Christians got me to become a Christian and to adopt all their silly views and doctrines, which wiped out the great joy I had and the closeness I had felt to God. It took over ten years to be delivered from Christianity and to get back to that wonderful experience with Christ I had had.
Sounds like a thread unto itself, TL. Start one...tell us how you were delivered from Christianity (religion)
My experiences have mostly been like what I described, and I'm sure many would classify them as psychological, but they've been consistent. I picked up certain things along that Christian path that "resonated" with what I felt inside, and I clung to those as true. Eventually, back in 1995, I finally ran into people who felt the same way I did. They didn't always (or even often) think the same way I did, but they "felt" like I did, and so we have always been able to work things out together.
I live with 35 families and about 10 single people who all live somewhat like I've described above. Our life works, and it works incredibly well. It's hard enough to say what I mean by that, that our method of "evangelism" is usually to say, "You have to come and see." When people ask how to join us, we tell them, "When you absolutely can't live away from us, then come live with us."
Anyway, I guess I believe because following that "Spirit" that I received way back in 1982 has been consistent (with the experience of others who have the same "Spirit") and effective.
T.L. at the place where you live, do they even have religious services of any kind? If so, what style of preaching do they use? Is it just like a familial community meeting, or do they use Bible verses and such?
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-16-2005 02:49 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by truthlover, posted 08-19-2003 6:44 PM truthlover has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 220 (199923)
04-17-2005 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
04-16-2005 5:40 AM


Why Belief?
I live in Denver, Colorado and have lived here all of my life. I grew up as a typical "Waynes World or "That 70's show" type of white boy in the suburbs. My Dad was a home builder, and my Mom was kinda like June Cleaver. I went to church once in awhile as a kid, but I never liked it.
The only thing that I liked about church was Miss Elizabeth and her sister Miss Lucy who ran the junior church. They had a sort of a sparkle about them that was different from the rotary club shiny happy atmosphere that the rest of the church had. (not to diss any current churches, but hey...if the shoe fits!)
As a teenager, I started getting high and working lots of hours at a restaurant. My friends and I sometimes talked about religion as we puffed away. We wondered about things like the mysteries of Egypt, U.F.O. sightings, and occult phenomena. Our drug experimentation got us close to the supernatural side of things, but we never saw the good part of it...which I now know to be the Holy Spirit! That came later.
When I was about 32, this girl invited me to church. I went out of respect and also because I was bored with drugs. It was not as if I felt that I needed God. I realized, however, that I was drawn by something in that church! The people were kinda weird..they talked about Jesus and Faith as easily as me and my friends used to talk about Hendrix and Clapton. Still...they were a bit emotional for me.
The Pastor made perfect sense when he preached, though. the words were definitely reaching me. I felt like a split personality. Part of me wanted to stay home, get high, and watch Ren and Stimpy.(or go ride my mountain bike...I was in love with nature!) A voice in my head warned me about being a nutty church boy. I was being drawn by God Himself, though...and I did not know it!
One Sunday, early February of 1993, I was at church and Arlene, a girl I knew, talked me into going up to the altar with her. I was nervous! I had prayed the prayers before, maybe while getting high and watching Pat Robertson on T.V., but nothing had ever happened like what happened this time! My stomach churned, and I was embarrassed to go up. I decided to go, however, and as they prayed with me, I was changed forever that day!
I still remember it as if it were yesterday! A slight shot of what seemed like electricity went through me, and I was aware of a giddy feeling. I felt like Chester cheetah...Aiiiyiiiyaaaayaa. They told me, "Welcome to the family of God, brother!" I thought that they had slipped me a new drug or something....but I felt sane.
I knew that I was saved the next morning! I awoke literally tweaking with energy! This was unlike any drug experience that I had ever felt! I could almost feel the supernatural around and within me! Unseen voices! They cussed in my ear , saying "go ahead! &#@* pray"...so I did! They left in a flash! I felt powerful! I was in awe and somewhat in shock about what I was feeling. I knew that God was in me! I knew that the supernatural was real!
Later,as I matured in my second birth,it was more difficult to know when it was me being egotistical for Him and Him using me despite my ego! I knew that I was hungry for Christ, however! I wanted to soak up more and more Bible truth! Also, quite humanly, I wanted to be used by God to spread the message of His power and love.
It has been 12 years since I got saved. I have experienced organized religion at its best...and worst. I saw that the Christians whom I looked up to were not perfect. You know, all of us make mistakes in life even after we get saved. Our old nature will never be perfect. A good Christian whom I know put it like this:
This truth became clear to me, thanks to a missionary named Bertha Smith. Ms. Smith had spent 40 years in China, and when I met her, she was already in her late 70s. I shared with her something I was struggling with, and I won't ever forget her reply.
She said, "Charles, you are as good as you'll ever be. And you're as good as you ever have been. You won't ever be any better than you are." How discouraging! I wanted to walk away right then. Then she said, "But the Holy Spirit who is living on the inside of you will enable you and He will do it for you. You can't improve your flesh."
Until then, I had always thought that if I worked hard enough, I'd be a better person. It was a real eye opener to realize that our heavenly Father does not want our good efforts. He wants our cooperation with the Spirit within us. Since we cannot improve on what is natural, God gives each believer the Holy Spirit.
I still love nature, but I know that it is the Creator and not creation that I worship. I have engaged in arguments with people who try and disprove my religion..(my relationship with Jesus) I have slipped more than a few times and I still sin. The difference is that now, I am not a victim. I am more than a conqueror in Him!
Most importantly, however, I STILL know that Jesus lives, and that the Holy Spirit dwells within me!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 04-16-2005 5:40 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by riVeRraT, posted 04-25-2005 8:26 AM Phat has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 23 of 220 (202120)
04-25-2005 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by nator
08-24-2003 11:26 AM


Awesome
Funny, part of the reason I stopped believing was because I didn't like how all the Christians I knew treated other people and each other so poorly.
This is a huge problem in the church today. I do not think the church was intended to be like that. This is probably more true to what Jesus wanted:
quote:
Acts 2
The Fellowship of the Believers
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
4 3Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles.
44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.
46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Mostly, I became much happier and less judgemental of myself and others when I stopped being a believer.
I am going to read into this, I am sorry if I am wrong.
Since the bible tells us that God writes his laws in the hearts of everyone since Jesus, the place you were at when you were a believer, you knew it was wrong, and it wasn't God. You probably felt pressure, and were possibly being taught wrong. You knew this in your heart, and since you were/currently looking for God, you could not find him. All you saw was a bunch of BS.
Please clarify if I am wrong. I only sense this, because I kind of went throught the same thing. I am not judging you, but sense a purity of heart from you, a genuine person, even though we debate a lot.
I think you see more God in animals, than people, and it is when you spend your time with the animals, that you are talking to God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by nator, posted 08-24-2003 11:26 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by nator, posted 04-25-2005 8:49 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 24 of 220 (202123)
04-25-2005 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
04-17-2005 2:54 PM


Re: Why Belief?
That was beautiful brother!
I felt the Holy Spirit as I read your testimony.
Mine is similar to yours.
That very presence of the Holy Spirit is so awesome. It is my prayer to share that with people. It is truth and love in the purest form. It is God's word piercing your heart like a flaming arrow.
But I guess everyone must travel their own road to get there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 04-17-2005 2:54 PM Phat has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 25 of 220 (202128)
04-25-2005 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dan Carroll
08-19-2003 5:02 PM


The Holy Spirit in you
I read the bible for many years. To me it was a good book of morals, and principals. If we had all followed it, we might actually get along. That is all it was until I had an encounter of the Holy Spirit which Jesus promised us in Acts. It was only then that I could see how the bible is the word of God. God speaks to you in your heart at that moment.
It's like someone turned on a big switch, and there was tremendous light. The darkness had no choice but to scatter from my life(IMO there was no darkness in my life at that point). The trees were greener, the air was fresher, the world was a place that God created for us. I could see light, truth, love, and darkness. I have tremendous discernment of it all now. It happened in an instant. If I wasn't a Christian, I would say it is the moment I became crazy.
How do we get there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-19-2003 5:02 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 26 of 220 (202133)
04-25-2005 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by riVeRraT
04-25-2005 8:19 AM


Re: Awesome
quote:
I am going to read into this, I am sorry if I am wrong.
You are partially wrong and partially right.
quote:
Since the bible tells us that God writes his laws in the hearts of everyone since Jesus, the place you were at when you were a believer, you knew it was wrong, and it wasn't God.
I don't know if I thought it "wasn't God".
I just knew I didn't feel any kind of connection the way other people said they did.
quote:
You probably felt pressure, and were possibly being taught wrong.
I certainly was pressured by my mother to go to Mass every sunday, and to Catechism every week until I was 18. I was smart enough to not even bring up the subject of not going because I knew it wasn't an option. I certainly didn't see the point in the catechism and would have stopped if given the choice, but I had a fear of God's retribution for the sin of not going to Mass every Sunday.
Once I got to college, I went to the local Catholic church exactly twice. I might have kept attending, but the priest had a very heavy accent and I couldn't understand a thing he said. Didn't seem to be much point to attending, so I stopped going altogether.
I still had some vague idea that I was sinning and bad things would start happening to me. Of course, nothing bad happened at all.
quote:
You knew this in your heart, and since you were/currently looking for God, you could not find him. All you saw was a bunch of BS.
I was searching and wondering about the spiritual in my late teens and early twenties. Certainly the Catholic Church seemed more and more BS-filled as I thought about it more, and was away from it. Then I began to question all religious thought and all belief in the supernatural. My rational mind, which had always been fairly strong, started to strengthen. I also began to come to terms with and heal from my abused childhood. It's funny that my loss of faith and recovery from past emotional abuse came about at the same time, and it was the realization that there was probably no God or Spirit to help me that gave me the strength to move on in my life.
I was all there is, most likely, so I figured I'd better make the choice to take responsibility for my life and make it what I wanted it to be.
So I did.
And still do.
quote:
Please clarify if I am wrong. I only sense this, because I kind of went throught the same thing. I am not judging you, but sense a purity of heart from you, a genuine person, even though we debate a lot.
And I sense the same from you, Rat.
quote:
I think you see more God in animals, than people, and it is when you spend your time with the animals, that you are talking to God.
Well, sure, if you'd like to believe this, I have no problem. It is a lovely thought, and thank you for sharing it.
I of course don't know if I'm talking to God or not, but I do get a great deal of pleasure out of "communing" with animals. Trying to understand them and their ways of communicating their thoughts is endlessly fascinating to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by riVeRraT, posted 04-25-2005 8:19 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by riVeRraT, posted 04-25-2005 9:25 AM nator has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 27 of 220 (202153)
04-25-2005 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by nator
04-25-2005 8:49 AM


Re: Awesome
Thank you for your sincere reply.
I still had some vague idea that I was sinning and bad things would start happening to me. Of course, nothing bad happened at all.
Well Jesus died for our sins, so we don't have to bear the pain or suffering.
Plus you may or may not have been sinning according to the bible. God knows your heart, and if you felt that God wasn't there in the church or the people within, then why would God be upset with you?
I don't think that you have to change who you really are deep inside to believe in God. You are who you are, the way God created you. Our church teaches that, and that God wants to use your talents as the way he made you, for the benifit of others around you.
I agree with you on the Catholic church, but that is not to say that there aren't people who know God, and loving people that believe in that religion. Some of my family are in that group, and they are some of the most loving people I know. It is very traditional to say the least, and some people are comfortable with tradition.
and it was the realization that there was probably no God or Spirit to help me that gave me the strength to move on in my life.
Or your perception of who and what God is. You decided to follow your heart, we all know God in our hearts.
My problem with the church today is saying that a person like will not go to heaven because you don't accept Jesus as your saviour. I think thats judging. Who are we to judge what you've been through in your life. Have you had a fair chance to really know Jesus? By what you tell me you went through, I would think not. It parallels what I went through to a degree, and what Phatboy went through to a degree. And along the way, I never felt I would go to hell, because I didn't believe. But we will find out one way or another.
Do you ask for forgiveness? Even if you feel like you do nothing wrong?
Do you forgive the people that abused you as a child?
I am sorry for your pain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by nator, posted 04-25-2005 8:49 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by nator, posted 04-25-2005 9:44 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 28 of 220 (202159)
04-25-2005 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by riVeRraT
04-25-2005 9:25 AM


Re: Awesome
quote:
Do you ask for forgiveness? Even if you feel like you do nothing wrong?
Well, no, I don't ask for forgiveness if I've done nothing wrong.
quote:
Do you forgive the people that abused you as a child?
Oh, yes, I forgave my parents years ago. I do not excuse how they treated me, and I am not close to them now because they have never owned up to their abuse. Part of the process of coming to terms with my childhood abuse is realizing that my parents are human, and have their own pain and limitations and that's why they weren't good parents to me. On an emotional maturity scale, both of them are pretty childlike and cowardly in many ways. As long as I have known them, they have always chosen to wrap themselves in loneliness and fear and depression and bitterness and self-hatred. I have a lot of pity for the tiny, limited, stunted emotional lives they lead.
I am really proud of the place I have come to in my life. It was a LOT of work. I know I will always have to work against the self-doubt and feelings of inadequacy that my mother and father gave me, but my self-work gave me the feeling that every day of my life is full of possibility. That's something that my parents will probably never know, sadly.
quote:
I am sorry for your pain.
Thank you, it's sweet of you to say so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by riVeRraT, posted 04-25-2005 9:25 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by riVeRraT, posted 04-25-2005 2:07 PM nator has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 29 of 220 (202232)
04-25-2005 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by nator
04-25-2005 9:44 AM


Re: Awesome
That is so huge what you did. I don't think many people can say, or do what you just shared. I see people week after week, looking for healing in church. Some of them actually get it, but others may need more.
We all have some kind of pain in our lives, and to get over it the way you did is outstanding. I too got over a lot of my pain by my own works, and constantly questioning myself how I got to be who I was. I did most of that before I felt I knew God. I have recieved further healing from knowing God, but I still have strongholds in me, that I am working on. I don't know if I will ever totally be free of all that caused pain in my life, but I guess its the effort that counts sometimes. Plus I do not want to be guilty of inducing pain in others lives as well. Thats tough to do, as we hurt people sometimes, and we don't even realize that we do. Becoming sensitive to peoples spirits has helped me with seeing that.
So you have been healed to a great degree by your own works, and you are extremely smart, and have a rational understanding of the world. Why would you ever need God? Why would you ever want to have a relationship with him? How would you ever find him?
I wonder if you ask yourself, why was I brought into this life, and have to go through what I went through? Why was I brought into existance? What is my purpose? Why do I even ask myself these questions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by nator, posted 04-25-2005 9:44 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by nator, posted 04-25-2005 2:29 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 30 of 220 (202239)
04-25-2005 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by crashfrog
08-25-2003 5:35 PM


I had kind of a similar experience - my church more or less "told" me that I had to judge those who believed or lived differently than me - that I had to believe that Buddists and homosexuals were hell-bound.
What sucks is that you got this message from a church, and yet is not what the bible teachs us. That we should not judge, unless we care to be judges the same way.
If Jesus said that homosexuality is a sin, and you read that, its up to you and no-one else to decide if it is a sin or not. It's also in your heart if you thinnk your going to hell or not, no one single person on this earth can tell you otherwise.
How can we believe what Jesus said, unless we find out who he is?
I didn't want to, and the evidence clearly was that 1) Christians couldn't prove that they were any more right than anybody else, and 2) homosexuals that I knew seemed like just-fine people.
On a relative scale line, Christians are worse than others, because most of them go around professing to be all holy holy.
2: Our interaction with homosexuals should be just as it is with anyone else. I think if Jesus was here right now, that he probably would be hanging with them anyway, and still be smashing tables in the temple.
As a Minnesotan, condemning people who weren't harming me just didn't sit well.
Doesn't matter were your from, we should not condemn period. It's our job to love. I agree with you hole heartedly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2003 5:35 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
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