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Author
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Topic: Why Doesn't God Explain In Person?
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4703 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: 06-24-2004
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
My thought is not that God is far above us. God is a concept that we use to relate to the vastness of creation and the mystery of consciousness. That mystery is present as you and I and the stars and bacteria, and on and on. I don't see the universe as a created thing outside of or separate from the source. My concept of God is that it is neccesarily beyond good and evil because those are concepts created by humans. I don't understand why things are as they are or I am as I am. To express this better "I" am just a concept of identity that the brain of this organism typing this has created. I am the fundamental mystery as surely as life and the universe is. I suspect that suffering is one end of the stick of feeling, the other being pleasure. Can't have one without the other. The highest value of suffering is that it can lead consciousness to contemplate it's current condition and awaken to it's real nature. The evils of this world are terrible but so are nightmares. The teachings of the Buddha and Advaita vedanta point to a reality beyond the world of duality and opposities of birth/death, pain/pleasure, good/evil. lfen
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-19-2004 12:18 PM | | PurpleYouko has replied |
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PurpleYouko
Member Posts: 714 From: Columbia Missouri Joined: 11-11-2004
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Message 47 of 86 (161492)
11-19-2004 1:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 46 by lfen
11-19-2004 12:41 PM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
Very concisely put Ifen. There is a view of the universe that I would be hard put to refute. I have come across a number of "religions" based on those kind of ideals and I really can't find fault with them. Some of the nicest people I know are Budhists or Bahii. I always think of this view (rather simplisticly I admit) as the "Bill and Ted" religions. You know "Be excelent to each other" and "Party on Dudes!" Great way to live I guess but the chances of God showing his face in such a universe are about Zero since he doesn't exist as an entity. PY
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by lfen, posted 11-19-2004 12:41 PM | | lfen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 48 by lfen, posted 11-19-2004 1:43 PM | | PurpleYouko has replied |
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4703 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: 06-24-2004
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
You know "Be excelent to each other" and "Party on Dudes!" There is no each, no other, no subject, no object. The party goes on i.e. ceaseless change.
Great way to live I guess but the chances of God showing his face in such a universe are about Zero since he doesn't exist as an entity.
entity Audio pronunciation of "entity" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nt-t) n. pl. entities 1. Something that exists as a particular and discrete unit: Persons and corporations are equivalent entities under the law. 2. The fact of existence; being. 3. The existence of something considered apart from its properties. Entity Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
Entity means self contained existing thing. But really it's not hard to see that there are no things aside from the convenience of language. The entire universe is a process of subprocesses of differing durations. No entity means no self, no other. To whom would God show his face? Think of an entity, say your self, as a whirlpool in a river. For a while the waters whirl about and the vortex they create has a brief dependent identity as a whirlpool in the river before moving on downstream. Does the river ever show itself to the whirlpool? Does God long to see his own face? Has he found a mirror? If you think so, where is that mirror? lfen
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PurpleYouko
Member Posts: 714 From: Columbia Missouri Joined: 11-11-2004
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Message 49 of 86 (161506)
11-19-2004 1:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by lfen
11-19-2004 1:43 PM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
quote:
Think of an entity, say your self, as a whirlpool in a river. For a while the waters whirl about and the vortex they create has a brief dependent identity as a whirlpool in the river before moving on downstream. Does the river ever show itself to the whirlpool?
Whoah!! That is deeeep! I can't compete on that level. Anyway what would be the point since we are both temporary parts of the same whole?  Great answer Ifen PY
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by lfen, posted 11-19-2004 1:43 PM | | lfen has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 50 of 86 (161541)
11-19-2004 3:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 43 by Tusko
11-19-2004 11:29 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
The Abramic ones are all much of a muchness, but there have been some others that are seriously out of whack on things like human sacrifice. There is no doubt that many religious and cultural practices of ancient people seem wrong, barbaric even, when we look at them from a 21 st. Century perspective. But how do they look when seen through the eyes of the contemporary folk? Remember, religion is something seperate from GOD. If GOD exists, He exists whether anyone belives in Him or not. Religion though is a purely human institution, something society creates. And that religion only has meaning within the context of that society.
2) Doesn't the various holy books just confuse things unneccesarily by LOOKING like they are offering morality from authority? I think many religions confuse things, usually for rather prosaic reasons. When religion tries to mandate morality from authority you can be pretty sure that someone is feathering a nest or protecting a franchise. The morality from authority may well be needed for infants and children as a basis for building their own sense of morality, but they were never meant to be more than that. Let me go back to the Book of Genesis, and the lesson I find is so often hidden away and kept from the audience. The story goes that two folk, Adam and {St}Eve, eat some fruit from a forbidden tree. The fruit is from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
The Knowledge of Good and Evil. IMHO, this gets brushed aside in most tellings of the tale. Instead, those trying to feather their nest jump to the far less important part, the disobedience, and to the outcome, getting thrown out of the Garden. If it's okay with you I'd like for you to reexamine the story but looking primarily at the Fruit.
The Knowledge of Good and Evil. IMHO, this is an allegory for that moment for all mankind when we become aware of morals. It's saying "You no longer need Morality from Authority, YOU know what's good and what's evil. Now you have to live up to what YOU know."
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by Tusko, posted 11-19-2004 11:29 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 51 by Tusko, posted 11-23-2004 5:56 AM | | jar has replied |
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Tusko
Member (Idle past 127 days) Posts: 615 From: London, UK Joined: 10-01-2004
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Message 51 of 86 (162552)
11-23-2004 5:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 50 by jar
11-19-2004 3:53 PM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
Jar said:
There is no doubt that many religious and cultural practices of ancient people seem wrong, barbaric even, when we look at them from a 21st. Century perspective. But how do they look when seen through the eyes of the contemporary folk? I wasn't necessarily saying that the old-school south american religions and the accompanying practices were BAD as such. I was just saying that the people who believed in those gods and engaged in those practices were probably just doing what felt like the logical thing. Thats why I think that its really hard to arrive at a set of morals through pure logic, uninfluenced by the culture that surrounds us.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by jar, posted 11-19-2004 3:53 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 52 by jar, posted 11-23-2004 9:16 AM | | Tusko has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 52 of 86 (162604)
11-23-2004 9:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 51 by Tusko
11-23-2004 5:56 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
Thats why I think that its really hard to arrive at a set of morals through pure logic, uninfluenced by the culture that surrounds us. I agree. Morals are a human invention and will always be influenced by the culture.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by Tusko, posted 11-23-2004 5:56 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by Tusko, posted 11-23-2004 10:48 AM | | jar has replied |
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Tusko
Member (Idle past 127 days) Posts: 615 From: London, UK Joined: 10-01-2004
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Message 53 of 86 (162618)
11-23-2004 10:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 52 by jar
11-23-2004 9:16 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
In that case, my question is this: If God has a definite idea of what's right and wrong, but humans can only derive a culturally relative morality with their limited powers of reasoning, isn't it impossible for us to please God through our actions unless he tells us what to do? Unfortunately, we both agreed that morality from authority was questionable, so this appears to be something of a double-bind. What's your perspective on this problem? I hope I'm not misrepresenting your views. (editted for totally random thoughts stuck on the end of post!) (editted again to clarify central argment) This message has been edited by Tusko, 11-23-2004 10:49 AM This message has been edited by Tusko, 11-23-2004 10:52 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by jar, posted 11-23-2004 9:16 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 54 by jar, posted 11-23-2004 2:30 PM | | Tusko has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 54 of 86 (162682)
11-23-2004 2:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 53 by Tusko
11-23-2004 10:48 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
If God has a definite idea of what's right and wrong, but humans can only derive a culturally relative morality with their limited powers of reasoning, isn't it impossible for us to please God through our actions unless he tells us what to do? A great question and one that I've tried to address a few times here. If we start with the OT as one source, I'd like to take you back to what I outlined in Message 50. IMHO the big message from the Genesis tales is that we have a Knowledge of Good and Evil, that that is both a gift and charge from GOD. In the NT it is reinforced in the two Great Commandments, "Love GOD" and the two parter, "Love others as you love yourself." We need to remember the second part, "Love yourself." If you look at almost every moral system, these are the real basics. Treat folk as you would like to be treated. you find this echoed in the Eastern Philosophies, Western Philosophies, most everywhere. From a Christian perspective we find this again displayed in Matthew 25.
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. But it is not unique to Christianity or only the Judaic Faiths. Pretty is as pretty does. It really is that simple.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by Tusko, posted 11-23-2004 10:48 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 56 by tsig, posted 11-24-2004 5:40 AM | | jar has replied | | | Message 57 by Tusko, posted 11-24-2004 6:44 AM | | jar has replied |
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2935 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: 04-09-2004
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Message 55 of 86 (162843)
11-24-2004 5:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 27 by jar
11-18-2004 12:36 PM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
So regardless of which religion someone is born into, isn't it helpful if at least initially there is some moral training? What if the the morals of the religion required killing?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by jar, posted 11-18-2004 12:36 PM | | jar has not replied |
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2935 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: 04-09-2004
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Message 56 of 86 (162848)
11-24-2004 5:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 54 by jar
11-23-2004 2:30 PM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
I agree. Morals are a human invention and will always be influenced by the culture. IMHO the big message from the Genesis tales is that we have a Knowledge of Good and Evil, that that is both a gift and charge from GOD. Are morals a human invention or of god, seems a clear contradiction. Presumption being that if one knowes good and evil then morals will follow.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by jar, posted 11-23-2004 2:30 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 58 by jar, posted 11-24-2004 9:29 AM | | tsig has replied |
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Tusko
Member (Idle past 127 days) Posts: 615 From: London, UK Joined: 10-01-2004
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Message 57 of 86 (162854)
11-24-2004 6:44 AM
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Reply to: Message 54 by jar
11-23-2004 2:30 PM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
Its weird. There seems to be something contradictory about altruism when there is even the vaguest notion of a reward. That's not to say it doesn't make sense to me as a biological or social adaptation that benefits a community; it does. I just can't imagine a truly selfless act. It reminds me of an interview I read with Steven Spielberg once. He was saying to the interviewer that he used to give large amounts to charity, but he always told people about it. Then one day he was sitting next to a rabbi on a plane, and they got talking. The rabbi said, 'You know, Steven, every time that you tell people about your charitable giving, it becomes a boast and so less worthy in the eyes of God.' Apparently this bothered Mr Speilberg; so now, he told the interviewer for this UK national newspaper (and consequently tens of thousands of British people), he gives large sums of money to charity anonymously. Whoops! This message has been edited by Tusko, 11-24-2004 07:17 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by jar, posted 11-23-2004 2:30 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 59 by jar, posted 11-24-2004 9:32 AM | | Tusko has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 58 of 86 (162885)
11-24-2004 9:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 56 by tsig
11-24-2004 5:40 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
Are morals a human invention or of god, seems a clear contradiction. Morals most certainly are a human invention. The story of the Garden of Eden is simply saying that. It's saying, "You know what's right and wrong." That is the gift and charge from GOD. He's telling folk that they are capable and should know the difference and choose the better path.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by tsig, posted 11-24-2004 5:40 AM | | tsig has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 62 by lfen, posted 11-24-2004 11:14 AM | | jar has not replied | | | Message 70 by tsig, posted 11-27-2004 9:37 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 59 of 86 (162886)
11-24-2004 9:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 57 by Tusko
11-24-2004 6:44 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
Its weird. There seems to be something contradictory about altruism when there is even the vaguest notion of a reward. That's not to say it doesn't make sense to me as a biological or social adaptation that benefits a community; it does. I just can't imagine a truly selfless act. It is hard to imagine but such things certainly happen. One such example is the soldier that throws himself on a grenade to save others. And the Rabbi is right.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by Tusko, posted 11-24-2004 6:44 AM | | Tusko has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by Tusko, posted 11-24-2004 9:53 AM | | jar has replied |
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Tusko
Member (Idle past 127 days) Posts: 615 From: London, UK Joined: 10-01-2004
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Message 60 of 86 (162892)
11-24-2004 9:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 59 by jar
11-24-2004 9:32 AM
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Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
I warn you - haven't really thought about this properly. Correct me if I'm talking through my bilge-holes. Aren't there compensations for jumping on a live grenade to save your friends? You may not be around to see them of course. But there are compensations - like they live, and are forever grateful for you, and you are remembered with honour, and if they are a theist, they might be expecting an eternal otherworldly reward too. Maybe these kinds of things would be important to people? I guess you could also be motivated to jump on a grenade for "selfish" reasons, and then people later ascribe a heroic motivation to your actions. It seems my problem is that I'm seeing ANY compensation for an apparently altruistic action as a mitigator of genuine altruism. Is this faulty logically? I think it might be, but can't quite see how. If it does stand up to a modicum of scrutiny, how do you view this problem?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by jar, posted 11-24-2004 9:32 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 61 by jar, posted 11-24-2004 10:07 AM | | Tusko has replied |
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