Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,808 Year: 3,065/9,624 Month: 910/1,588 Week: 93/223 Day: 4/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why Doesn't God Explain In Person?
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 76 of 86 (163467)
11-27-2004 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by tsig
11-27-2004 9:48 AM


Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
IMHO it is something more than the fact that we are social animals. There are many critters that could be classified as social animals but that seem to be totally amoral.
As I have said before, even in this very thread I believe, IMHO there are four characteristics to human intellect that are unique to humans and that is the extent, intent, scope and empathy. I believe that those are both a gift and charge from GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by tsig, posted 11-27-2004 9:48 AM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by tsig, posted 11-27-2004 10:27 AM jar has replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 77 of 86 (163470)
11-27-2004 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
11-27-2004 9:52 AM


back to topic
The absense of evidence is evidence of absence. That's why no invisible creature will show up and tell you what is right and wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 11-27-2004 9:52 AM jar has not replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 100 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 78 of 86 (163471)
11-27-2004 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
11-27-2004 9:13 AM


Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
Ah! I think I see the problem here: it's one of definition. I was considering altruism as a kind of selflessness that precluded any benefit to the altruist. I can now see there are all kinds of problems with that. For instance, how on earth do you measure whether there has been or will be any benefit to a person?
I don't think this definition of altruism is workable at all. I was using it because I believed others thought it was valid.
You seem to be saying that actions that are intended to produce mutual benefit for active party and rescipient can be considered altruistic. This is what I'm talking about. I guess I think of that as enlightened self-interest, which I think is coherent. Indeed, I personally think that enlightened self-interest is the only explanation required when talking about why people do things to help others. Its only when people talk about truly selfless acts that I feel a bit uncomfortable. I just think its too hard to say with any assurance that someone gained no compensations through an act that helped others, so I don't think such "selfless altruism" is a really workable concept.
This may sound a bit weird, but even in your grenade example, I don't think you can say with any confidence that the person was entirely selfless. Dead, yes - and someone who probably inspires a lot of gratitude - but selfless?
I see most people, if not all people as fundamentally rational beings. I think the ability to reason is pretty amazing, so I think that however deluded or disturbed a person, their actions make some kind of sense. I think that a selflessly altruistic act wouldn't make sense, and is contrary to human intelligence.
But maybe nobody believes in that kind of altruism, so I'm tilting at totally pointless windmills.
This message has been edited by Tusko, 11-27-2004 10:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 11-27-2004 9:13 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 11-27-2004 11:02 AM Tusko has replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 79 of 86 (163472)
11-27-2004 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
11-27-2004 9:57 AM


Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
As I have said before, even in this very thread I believe, IMHO there are four characteristics to human intellect that are unique to humans and that is the extent, intent, scope and empathy. I believe that those are both a gift and charge from GOD.
There is nothing unique to humans. We are all in this together. Caring for your own is just genetics in action.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 11-27-2004 9:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 11-27-2004 10:48 AM tsig has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 80 of 86 (163474)
11-27-2004 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
11-27-2004 9:52 AM


Re: Getting pretty far off topic
If you have kids, you will understand that there is NO joy greater than what you get from wathching your kids at Christmas or a birthday. They get presents but you get something far greater in the sheer joy of seeing them have fun.
My kid is 30 years old. All animals love thier young.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 11-27-2004 9:52 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 86 (163475)
11-27-2004 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by tsig
11-27-2004 10:27 AM


Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
Caring for your own is just genetics in action.
And IMHO that is exactly what is different and unique about Humans. But that is for another thread, it's not OT here.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by tsig, posted 11-27-2004 10:27 AM tsig has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 86 (163476)
11-27-2004 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tusko
11-27-2004 10:20 AM


Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
I don't have a problem with the term enlightened self interest, but I also believe that it can be pushed way beyond reason. There are actions where the gain to others so far outweighs the gain to the actor that I think enlighted self interest becomes moot. I believe that is the case in the example I used, the soldier throwing himself on a grenade.
In that example, we can with a little effort come up with what might be a benefit to the actor, but those benefits certainly are small when viewed next to the cost to the actor of his actions. Let's face it, the posibility of some future life, of fame or glory after your dead may well be real, but when compared to getting your legs blown off in the here and now or of getting killed only to find out your belief system really is wrong are not what I'd consider really great incentives.
While I may well believe Heaven to be real, I'm in no hurry to put that belief to the test.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tusko, posted 11-27-2004 10:20 AM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Tusko, posted 11-27-2004 11:57 AM jar has not replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 100 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 83 of 86 (163485)
11-27-2004 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
11-27-2004 11:02 AM


Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
I hope I'm not sounding like too much of a freak! I don't think people who die for other people are bad or boring; I think they are pretty rare and great to have around
Personally, I can't imagine the kind of rationalisation that would go on, if you were thinking "It would be better that I died than these other people". I don't think that I'd ever do it... but then again, maybe it isn't that weird. Maybe the think: I'm going to die anyway if no-one dives on it, so what have I got to lose?
But thats not my point. My main point is that you are either someone who could rationalise that kind of sacrifice or not. I don't think you could choose to make the other, "wrong" decision after you had had your split second to think about it. I think I'm talking about free will, which I have a tough time understanding/believing in.
And I don't think that has anything to do with the topic. Apologies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 11-27-2004 11:02 AM jar has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 84 of 86 (163603)
11-27-2004 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
11-27-2004 9:38 AM


Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
jar
Ok I get ten dollas if you give me ten dollars. that is established. What next in this line of reasoning?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 11-27-2004 9:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 11-27-2004 9:40 PM sidelined has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 86 (163604)
11-27-2004 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by sidelined
11-27-2004 9:28 PM


Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
But since I gave you ten dollars Canadian, it really didn't cost me ten dollars from my perspective. Correct?
If that is true then I benefited slightly, it only cost me about $8.50US. But you still benefited, I did okay, everyone is happy.
Now comes the really hard part. How to get back towards the topic.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Can't do it. We've strayed to far from the path.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by sidelined, posted 11-27-2004 9:28 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by sidelined, posted 11-28-2004 1:26 AM jar has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 86 of 86 (163636)
11-28-2004 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
11-27-2004 9:40 PM


Re: Here I go again, humor an old man please.
jar
Can't do it. We've strayed to far from the path.
LOL Story of my life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 11-27-2004 9:40 PM jar has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024