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Author Topic:   Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 16 of 296 (497627)
02-05-2009 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
02-04-2009 9:33 AM


Mod writes:
Do I get a choice? For reasons I will explain, the concept of eternal life whichever way it is dressed up fills me with either horror or non-caring. If I had a choice I would not accept this offer. Can I not simply request to be sent into the dark absence of oblivion rather than suffering permanent consciousness? It seems highly immoral to force me to do the thing which I would loathe to do.
You're familiar enough with the options open to you being eternal life or eternal death (biblical death involving ongoing existance - not annihilation)? The way in which you arrive at one or other of these destinations involves your will and it's expression. Essentially it boils down to a choice and they are but twofold.
You can carry on as you are currently doing, deciding how it is you want to direct your life, deciding for yourself what you consider good and evil to be and living accordingly or no as you see fit, deciding for yourself what lifes meaning is, deciding for yourself that there is no need to bow down to a creator (primarily because he doesn't meet your criteria for proving his existance to your satisfaction). In short, you can choose to continue to live an independent, godless life.
The alternative is to surrender completely to God. You give up your God-given right to go your own way if you so choose, you give up your right to choose which direction and which morality and which purpose - in order that his direction, his morality and his purpose for you rule. We'll leave aside the fact that after such surrender you will sin (rebel) again and we'll leave aside the precise mechanics of how it is you chose to surrender to God (you can't chose for something when you have no sense of it being available to chose)
We can summarise your choice thus:
quote:
You chose to maintain and sustain independance from God in which case you've chosen Hell and will spend eternity separated from the love of God
You surrender your will completely to God in which case you've effeectively chosen heaven.
We can see that there is no choice open to you regarding the nature of a non-Hell existance. In order to attain a non-Hell existance you'll have already given up your right to choose outside Gods will for you - so won't consider it immoral or unfair that you can't choose the nature of your eternal life existance. You choose not to be able to choose in other words - it'd be unreasonable of you to be whinging about it after the fact. Be a man - stick with the consequences of your decision
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In many versions of immortality my personality remains the same for all eternity. What horror! My goals remain the same? Does that mean they are never fulfilled? Or does it mean I never get any new goals? Do I learn anything? If I do learn, gain new goals and so on and so forth - then I surely am growing. The dilemma is this:
In many versions? That strikes me as a bit strange. Whilst the Bible is replete with information giving us insight into the environment of Hell, it's pretty sketchy on the environment in heaven. There'll only be righteousness there so the ability to choose against God will no longer exist - but again that was the choice made that attained heaven for you in the first place so there should be no problem for you there. And we're told it will be blissful - even if no eye has seen and no mind has concieved of just how blissful that can be.
Where did you get this idea of stagnation?
-
If I do grow, then I change. This is good. I like changing - I am a different person now, then when I was six years old and I am different from when I was eighteen.
This post of yours is an excellent example of the kind of independent and irrational thinking that underlies your choice against God (as it currently stands). God says eternal life will be far better than here but that's not good enough for you. You have to speculate your way to supposing it such that God stick it. But this God was the same one who assembled a time/space existance whose attributes you point to as being preferable to anything you imagine an eternal life has to offer. If time/space a subset created for the purpose of allowing created beings to decide upon their eternal destination why would you suppose it "greater" than the destination itself? Would it not be more likely that Heaven will offer far better than the best on earth and Hell far worse that the worst on earth?
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So God, can you take your offer of eternal life and stick it somewhere dark and unconscious? Either that or explain to me why I'm wrong.
Your wrong (better said: irrational) because you:
a) don't trust God to do as he says (when you rely on this same God to enable you to draw your next breath)
b)Require that God meet your requirements (explain himself in this instance) before bowing to him. Clearly the one has to give way before the other occur. That's a matter of your choice however.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 9:33 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 7:31 AM iano has replied
 Message 95 by Jaderis, posted 02-10-2009 5:59 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 21 of 296 (497633)
02-05-2009 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Modulous
02-05-2009 7:31 AM


Re: Kiss my ring
Assuming the universe is as you describe it, if I had been given a choice, knowing fully the universe I would be brought into, I would have asked to be uncreated/not created/not born. Unfortunately I was not given this choice, so I fail to see why I should be forced to stick with the consequences of a decision that was made for me rather than by me.
I'm not quite sure how you would be given a choice not to exist without being made exist in order to be given the choice not to exist...
But anyway..
It's true that you weren't given a choice about the choice facing you. You'll be forced to stick with the consequences of either one because God is sovereign and has decided that be the case. The only court of appeal I can envisage you applying to is the court which denies God's sovereign right to have it anyway he likes. I'm not sure from whence they'd derive authority to pronounce judgement on God though - nevermind deriving the ability to enforce it.
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Which is one reason why there are many versions. There are others: like the fact that the Holy Bible is not the only collection of texts that describe an eternal afterlife.
Granted, but if dealing with the biblical God you've little reason to be suppose the worst as you do in your OP. The biblical information is simply to sketchy to draw much by way of such conclusion.
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That's why I am asking God, or one of his inspired followers, to explain how an eternal life can be better than a temporal one. "It will be" certainly isn't a good enough answer for me
That's Gods answer to you. Either he is to believed or not. If not then no answer should convince you - given that God could be telling you lies.
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[qs]That certainly would be irrational. However, I do not rely on God to enable me to do these things. I rely on my lungs to draw my next breath, knowing that there will be at least one time (and probably many) when that does not transpire.[/quote]
I was assuming you believed in God for the sake of argument. My mistake.
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I have assumed that God will give me eternal life, as per the OP. I am asking him, or an inspired agent of his, to explain why eternal life is something to be desired. I can only assume you are not one of these inspired agents since you did not do this, you just reiterated the promise of eternal life and that it would be awesome or terrible.
You don't think it'd be interesting to meet God?
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If God is such a baby/spoiled monarch/ruthless dictator that he demands I bow before him, before he answers my questions with regards to why he should be bowed to, I'm signing up with the resistance. An eternity being gratified pointlessly by such a petulant arsehole sounds horrific.
He doesn't demand that you bow before him - awestruck exposure to him and his majesty will cause you to do that all by yourself - whenever it is you meet him.
God's work in salvation is to convince you to bow before him - to give you a reason whereby your knees willingly hit the deck. But it's a work that can be thwarted by your unwillingness to be brought to that point.
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But thanks for trying, I'm assuming you don't see a way out of the dilemma any more than I do, but have simply decided to ignore it because you trust that the architect behind it has got some kind of magic solution to it that does not require logic (ie., God has an irrational solution).
If the solution was logical I'd still have to trust God that eternal life won't turn out to be other than logical. It's tortoises all the way down Mod. At at the base of it all is trust in God.
Your posting is an exercise in demanding that God conform to your will and your demands. If you consider that just and right then you'll grant that God is as entitled to demand that you conform to his will and demands. As it happens, he will ensure that you conform- be it willingly on your part or not.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 7:31 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 9:05 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 26 of 296 (497652)
02-05-2009 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Modulous
02-05-2009 9:05 AM


Re: Kiss my ring
Precisely my point - it's nonsense, as is suggesting that I be a man and suffer the consequences of my decision even though I did not make any decision.
But you did make a decision - or will have. That you had no choice but to chose one way or the other doesn't absolve you from the consequences of choosing the way you choose.
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I'm talking about having eternal life - it is to that this topic is about and according to you I have no choice in that matter. It would be like telling someone to accept the consequences of their decision over which parents they would have).
The choice you have in the matter is to sign up for Gods will to reign in your life - which includes his will regarding the flavour of eternal life. If you don't want to sign up in that direction then sign in the other.
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I agree, in your theology I am forced into eternal life with no choice in that matter. Can you explain why eternal life is something to be desired, though?
As pointed out, you are not forced into eternal life - you can choose eternal death if you want. The force applied extends only to your having to choose one or the other.
As for a reason to chose it? Avoiding eternal death strikes me as one good reason - by all accounts it's a terrible existance. Getting to meet someone as fascinating as God - on terms that involve his loving you beyond compare would be another very good reason to chose life.
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Assume the worst? I proposed a dichotomy and explain why that dichotomy presents a dilemma. I am not assuming the worst at all, I am presenting two mutually exclusive possibilities for how eternal life works, neither of which I want.
You're assuming the worst in the sense that your supposing that these possibilities - neither of which you like - are the only possibilities.
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Then either God doesn't understand the question, or he is an evasive git. Assuming he does understand and he isn't evasive, then you don't understand his answer when you are relaying it to me, or God is not inspiring your answers. I seem to be getting more sensical answers from the Mormon God so far.
Gods answer requires that you believe him and trust him. Whatever his answer you'll still have to believe him that he speaks the truth. So what benefit is there in gaining more insight into how great eternal life would be? If he says "it will be great - trust me" then you're no further along than if he gave you 2 minutes exposure by way of foretaste.
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I am. I don't see how believing that God exists, or in more general terms that eternal life is possible, must therefore mean that I rely upon that God to perform my bodily functions.
Who do you suppose to be holding all creation together if not God?
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What makes you ask that? It would probably be interesting to meet God.
It would be only probably interesting to meet God?
To meet a person capable of making a being such as you - only probably interesting to meet. I'm curious Mod - is there anyone else who you envisage would be more interesting to meet than God.
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How so? I'm just asking God or one of his inspired agents to explain to me, in a loving fashion I presume, why my dilemma is not a dilemma. How is asking that question demanding God conform to my will and my demands? If he chooses not to answer that's his choice, I rather suspect he won't answer.
Er.. that wasn't what I was picking up. This is more like it:
"Unless, you, God (or your inspired agents) meet my demand and explain what eternity is going to be like - so as to offset concerns I have about the couple of options that I've managed to dream up - then you can stick your eternal life where the sun doesn't shine and annihilate me".
The only place the sun won't be shining is in Hell. Is that where you want God to stick your eternal life?
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Eternal life will be awesome (or terrible), because He says so.
Not quite. It is as he describes it and there is no profit in enquiring further (based on turtles all the way down). But the reason why it is as it is, is because we are exposed to one or other attribute of him: his love and majesty and glory and kindness.
Or we are exposed to his wrath.
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If you don't believe Him it'll be terrible, if you do, it'll be awesome. God does not have to answer my puny piddling mortal questions about whether or not I want it - I have no choice so it doesn't matter.
If you believe him you'll be exposed to him as above. If you don't believe him you'll be exposed to him as above.
He doesn't have to answer your questions - not just because you're puny - but because all that you need for your salvation (or no) has been provided according to the mechanism God has designed for the purpose. That mechanism enables your choice, takes note of your choice and executes your choice. That mechanism is suitable for people born in all ages, of all intelligences, of all educations etc.
There is no need for God to supply a mechanism of your cobbled together design when the one he has provided for you and everyone else will fulfill it's task to perfection. Everyone spending an eternity in a place of their own hearts desire and that place exceeding the expectations of their owns hearts desire.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 9:05 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 11:51 AM iano has replied
 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2009 5:07 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 34 of 296 (497712)
02-05-2009 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Straggler
02-05-2009 5:07 PM


Re: Kiss my ring
Hi Straggler
Straggler writes:
You have previously stated that God does not force us to do anything against our will.
Given that God forces many to die against their will I doubt that the context would support my meaning that.
You have also told me previously that "God is logic".
Logically an eternal existence equates to either an eternity of personal change or an eternity of personal stagnation.
There is no other logical conclusion. Is there?
Change and Stagnation as Mod was describing things lent heavily upon the concept of time elapsing as well as supposing eternal personhood to be more or less a continuation of the time-bound experience. If elapsing time wasn't an element of such an existance however, then time-bound words such as change and stagnation need no longer apply.
It wouldn't strike me as reasonable to extend logical constraints arising in time to a realm where time may not exist.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2009 5:07 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 6:05 PM iano has not replied
 Message 38 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2009 6:21 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 35 of 296 (497714)
02-05-2009 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Blue Jay
02-05-2009 5:32 PM


Re: what eternity means
Bluejay writes:
Most often, I have heard "glorify" Him interpreted as singing songs.
Merely obeying God glorifies God. For one sick to the back teeth of not being obedient to God I can't wait for an eternity of it. I'm positively rubbing my hands together with glee at the prospect of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Blue Jay, posted 02-05-2009 5:32 PM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Jaderis, posted 02-10-2009 7:14 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 36 of 296 (497715)
02-05-2009 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Straggler
02-05-2009 5:07 PM


Re: Kiss my ring
Straggler writes:
Could it be that we will all ultimately reside in the same eternal realm and that whether this is considered heaven or hell is merely a matter of personal perspective?
I'd imagine it to be the same realm - existing on opposite sides of a coin called God. Those on one side get to experience one side of the coin: love, kindness, majesty. Those on the other side get to experience wrath.
It seems to me that a God who loves righteousness cannot but hate unrighteousness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2009 5:07 PM Straggler has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 42 of 296 (497777)
02-06-2009 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Straggler
02-05-2009 6:21 PM


Re: Kiss my ring
Straggler writes:
I intended my participation in this thread to be relatively drive-by. I should have known that invoking debate with you would not allow that level of superficiality........
Your salvation remains high on my agenda.
-
But the point remains that forcing Mod to an existence of eternity, a state that Mod describes as "horrific", seems rather counter to any idea of choice. He can choose eternity or eternity. Horror or horror. Hallelujah!
It's true that Mod doesn't get to chose just anything he likes. That doesn't alter the fact he has a choice between options. Most of us get by with not being able to chose just anything we want. His claim that the options are equally horrific - rendering no effective choice is entirely speculative. He and we don't know what eternity will be like so can't begin to suppose what that existance will involve.
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I think you should raise this point with Mod himself as, despite being fairly unsatisfactory, it is the closest to a theistic get-out-clause I have seen in response to the conundrum he has posed.
The best way to assuage fears based on speculation and guesswork is not to speculate and guess in the first place. A more humble approach would be to stand back and use your knowledge of what you can observe to begin to suppose the scale of God and suppose that delivering on eternal bliss isn't beyond his capability.
If neither change nor stagnation (i.e. absence of change) then what.............?
Who knows what the realm of eternity will throw up? That's part of the whole excitement Straggler. "No eye has seen and no mind has concieved of the wonderful things that God has prepared for those who love him". It's an utter arrogance to sit here utilising that which God has given us to suppose our way to placing boundaries on what God can give us. An utter arrogance and an argument made entirely out of bootstraps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2009 6:21 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Straggler, posted 02-06-2009 12:53 PM iano has replied
 Message 100 by Jaderis, posted 02-10-2009 8:32 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 44 of 296 (497803)
02-06-2009 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Modulous
02-05-2009 11:51 AM


Re: Shutup and Kiss my ring, already
iano writes:
But you did make a decision - or will have. That you had no choice but to chose one way or the other doesn't absolve you from the consequences of choosing the way you choose.
Mod writes:
What? Are you saying I do get to decide whether I will live for eternity? I thought your position, as you later describe it is that I only get to choose the "flavour of eternal life". Which is it?
You chose which flavour of eternal life you'll live. Because you chose it you can't complain about the consequences attaching to your having chosen it.
Very confusing. What does 'eternal death' mean? The way I understand it, it cannot be a terrible existence since it would mean not existing.
Sorry. Biblically speaking death doesn't mean ceasing to exist. There is your physical death whereby you leave your body behind. Eternal existance in a state of death would be eternal separation from the love of God. It would appear to mean, amongst other things, that the image of God in which you are currently made would be removed from you. Your ability to relate, to create, to hope, to wonder, to enjoy...etc wouldn't be available to you.
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I'm not assuming any such thing - I am stating that I see no other possibilities and asking if anyone has any answers. Evidently between you and God, you can't think of any or won't tell me. Fine.
Fair enough. But you would recognise that your engaging in sheer guesswork wouldn't you? Like, your inability to conceive of possibilities can't be supposed to limit God's ability to conceive of possibilities.
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I was hoping that God could explain, as well as or better than a mortal philosopher, why my dilemma isn't one. "Trust me, it isn't" is to be frank, a pathetic answer. I appreciate its the best that your God has - so my answer to your God remains "Thanks, but no thanks."
My point was that no matter what answer you received you'd still be reliant on trusting God that he would deliver on it. So what material difference whether you have an answer that satisfies your intellect now or an answer that says "trust me that you will be satisfied". What would be achieved by the one that wouldn't be achieved by the other?
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Forces that God put in place when he created it. I don't hold together my model airplane - I used glue to do that.
And who do you suppose holds those forces in place. The forces that hold you and you're model aeroplane together? Doesn't the regression simply stop at God?
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Since I've not met him, I don't know if it would be interesting. I'm sure the experience would be novel - but would it hold my interest? Probably - but them God might be dreadfully boring for all I know.
Given all that holds your interest has been rendered by God I find that a little hard to swallow. That said, this gig is about where one's heart lies - whether your heart plumps for that which God hates (evil) or for that which God loves (righteousness). The person whose hearts plumps for evil will hate that which God stands for. They might well considering him boring.
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Still, it would be nice if I could spend my mortal life looking forward to eternity rather than dreading it. Your God doesn't do that kind of thing, it's a case of "Shutup and follow my rules that I won't fully explain for reasons that I won't explain so that you will be rewarded in ways I won't explain."
There is no reason to dread eternal life other than by distrusting God. But if you distrust God you have no reason to dread eternal life because you won't be having eternal life in order to find out whether you were right or not.
I spend my life looking forward to eternity because there is sufficient given to look forward to - even if it's not described in detail. Existing without pain or suffering? Getting to actually see God - who I don't find boring in the least? Not being capable of evil anymore - meaning no more shame and no more guilt attaching to evil actions of mine?
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Well of course he doesn't. I don't have to answer your questions, and Hitler didn't have to answer Chamberlain's questions. If your God's answer is just 'shutup and trust me' then our discussion is over. I remain where I was at the start, not looking forward to eternal life.
It's not me you're addressing here Mod. It's God. And he has given you the right to shake your fist in his face and demand of him things you have no right to demand - but only for a time.
Either you relinquish your right to shake your fist at him and kneel on his terms or that temporary right to shake your fist will be taken away from you for good. That's the only choice you're being offered.
Some make the mistake of supposing that Hell, for all it's horror, will permit a person to maintain a "I did it my way" attitude and hold two fingers up to God. How often we read them supposing the price worth paying - if only they can maintain independance, if only they can have the final say. They don't realise that it's God who sustains the persons ability to do as they do. And that he will remove that sustanance at a point.
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Even those in Hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 02-05-2009 11:51 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 7:41 AM iano has replied
 Message 101 by Jaderis, posted 02-10-2009 8:53 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 48 of 296 (497823)
02-06-2009 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Modulous
02-06-2009 7:41 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
All your talk about God and the afterlife and having only the choice between two fates is in exactly the same boat as mine: guesswork. As long as we both recognize this we can get to the heart of the issue - is immortality something to be desired and if so, why?
Dispose of the model your question interrogates and you dispose of the question itself. As it happens this model disposes of the question in various ways - which is perhaps why you're disposing of it?
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But I don't even know what I'm supposed to be trusting him to do and why trusting him to do it would be a good thing. For all I can tell I want to trust that he won't do it.
That misses the point. The point is that you currently distrust him and such distrust is the preserve of the still-lost. It's an identifying marker of the lost if you like. Which means you don't have to question whether eternal life will be to your liking - for you're not currently in line to receive it. The saved have as a marker trust-in-God and wouldn't be questioning whether or not eternal life will be to their liking. They trust that it will be.
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Sounds like going to Hollywood. I'll get stripped of everything that makes me human, forced to smile and be happy, and then meet the biggest celebrity ever. Bleurch.
Er...it's not desired that you remain human. It's desired that you be elevated in status - to be adopted as a child of God. To be someone's child is to be of the same order as the parent.
Hell on the other hand involves a reduction in order - a complete fall from your current state. You get stripped of all that is good and attractive about a human being.
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Translation: This is an absolutist totalitarian dictatorship with no escape. Your choice is to either accept that, or accept that. You will conform.
God is indeed sovereign and he does indeed call the shots.
At the moment you enjoy elements of being made in his image and likeness. And you enjoy elements of being fallen and evil. Your choice is whether you want to be fully conformed into his image and likeness or whether you want to be fully conformed into falleness and evil.
This life is the half way house where you get to decide which it's to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 7:41 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by bluescat48, posted 02-06-2009 8:33 AM iano has replied
 Message 50 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 8:46 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 51 of 296 (497839)
02-06-2009 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by bluescat48
02-06-2009 8:33 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
Great, an eternity of either good crap or bad crap ie damned if you do or damned if you don't.
If the word "crap" is to be understood as a negative and the word "good" as a positive then how can there be such a thing as a positive negative?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by bluescat48, posted 02-06-2009 8:33 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Vacate, posted 02-06-2009 10:28 AM iano has not replied
 Message 58 by bluescat48, posted 02-06-2009 2:32 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 52 of 296 (497845)
02-06-2009 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Modulous
02-06-2009 8:46 AM


Re: Kim il-YHWH
Mod writes:
I'm not disposing anything. I am simply pointing out that your answers are as much guesswork as mine are. Whether or not our guesses are true, it doesn't get us any closer to solving the dilemma. Your guess seems to simply be - "There is no dilemma" *hand waiving motion*.
The premise on which your dilemma is founded is as much guesswork as any answer of mine - meaning we are no closer to deciding there is a genuine dilemma to be addressed.
As pointed out earlier, any answer that would "assuage your fear" relies on you trusting God to deliver on that answer. Even if God showed you a snippet of what (he says is) eternal life, you'd be no better off than you are with a "God says it'll be bliss". This renders pursuit of an answer somewhat moot..
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Even if I did, it wouldn't solve the dilemma, I'd just not ask about it...which is the way your God seems to like it.
If you trusted him you wouldn't have a dilemma. "Eternal life is going to be great because God says so - the limitations imposed by my imaginings are not limiting factors for him. Because he says it will be bliss so will it be. That's what trust is, Mod.
The picture given to us is child/father. A child trusts what his father says. God, unlike an earthy father, can always do what he says.
-
So I won't survive my death? Something different will come into existence from me? Then I don't really care.
If there is enough of me that survives this stripping process, then I still wonder whether I will eventually die by change or I will simply be the same not human entity for all eternity. Whichever way it pans out, I certainly don't desire it. Oh well, I'll just have to hope you guessed wrong.
Sub-human for all eternity would appear to be the biblical position. Of course you wouldn't desire that that be the case - but a fair choice presented to someone doesn't require that they realise the full consequence arising from their decision either way. It only requires that the choice be a balanced one.
That the consequences turn out to be far worse/better than supposed is neither here nor there.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 8:46 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2009 9:31 AM iano has not replied
 Message 104 by Jaderis, posted 02-10-2009 9:25 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 59 of 296 (497910)
02-06-2009 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Straggler
02-06-2009 12:53 PM


Re: Logic Vs Faith?
Straggler writes:
Well I appreciate the sentiment. Even if I do inevitably think it somewhat misguided. Buz said something vaguely similar a short while ago. Am I doing something to inspire this reaction or do you theists say that to all the unbelievers......?
Not really. You're less antagonistic than some, but seeing that I was about antagonistic as one could be - right before I was saved - that's hardly a reason to be cheerful in your case. It's just that I wouldn't wish the wrath of God on my worst enemy - even if I had one.
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Why doesn't God just allow us to cease our existence in the oblivion of nothingness should we so desire it? Is that too much to ask?
By biblical definition, those with eternal life are those who have not only submitted their will irrevocably to the will of God (notwithstanding subsequent-to-submission-sin) - and his will doesn't involve annihilation for them. They've also met him and are astonished at how fantastic he is - annihilation would be about the very last thing on their mind. That's a double whammy...
(My apologies to anyone who cringes as I once did at those words: "submission to the will of God". It can't be helped!)
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An eternity of wishing never to have been born seems an unjust punishment for something in which we had no choice (i.e. being brought into existence in the first place)
The wishing of those in Hell will have more to do with regretting the sin committed and the means invoked in order to avoid submitting to God's management. Wishing one wasn't born causes bootstrap-level problems: if one wasn't born then one couldn't exist so as to wish the wish that would result in one not being born.
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This is true. But it must be acknowledged that your heavenly version of eternity is as much speculation as is Mod's. It really comes down to a choice of: Speculation based on logic Vs speculation based on faith.
It's the biblical model presented - and one that happens to stalemate an objection to the (unspoken) biblical God. Mod's premise involves confining the boundaries of logic to time - but with "what is time?" being the black hole that it is, his ball is kicked towards the same "faith" touchline as mine.
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Man is an inquisitive speculative beast. To deny speculation is to deny our nature.
I agree. And when you can deflate speculative balloons with speculative pins the worth of speculation is made manifest.
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It strikes me that this is a form of speculation as well. A form of speculation rooted in faith as much as Mod's speculation is rooted in logic.
True, it's the kind of thing that only occurs to the person who gets to wondering what God would be like if he existed. They'd be a ways along the path from those who only seek to find ways to object - uber alles.
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But is not speculation rooted in faith at least equally as arrogant and equally as unfounded?
The choice seems to be speculation rooted in logic or speculation rooted in faith.
God actually existing as I say vs. Mod's logic actually confined puts another spin on the relative worth of faith vs. logic. You're presuming the case you're implying here.
You've heard, no doubt, of the 2d creature who finds his way blocked by a sphere? His logic says that if he had legs as strong as the cow who jumped over the moon then he could clear the obstacle. My logic also says that he would exert far less effort were he to walk around it. If only he occupied the realm of my logic...
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Any possible reassurance relies on having faith that God's plan includes that which is above and beyond logic as we know it.
Logic as we know it - indeed.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Straggler, posted 02-06-2009 12:53 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Straggler, posted 02-06-2009 6:35 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 60 of 296 (497911)
02-06-2009 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by bluescat48
02-06-2009 2:32 PM


Heads you win..
bluescat writes:
Crap is something that I would not want. The idea of good & bad are relative to the assumed "Heaven" & "Hell." Either way it is an eternity of insanity.
The options are an eternity spent with one side of Gods coin vs. an eternity spent with the other side of God's coin. He doesn't offer a neutral(ised) option anymore than a coin offers to land on it's edge.
You're welcome to find a god that does though..
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by bluescat48, posted 02-06-2009 2:32 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 87 of 296 (498166)
02-08-2009 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Straggler
02-06-2009 6:35 PM


Re: Logic Vs Faith?
Straggler writes:
Well if God's logic is not logic as we know it then potentially black can be white, light can be dark, up can be down and true can be false.
The device of a 2d creature encountering the seemingly insurmountable height of a sphere didn't require the current logic to be turned on it's head.
In which case all debate is futile.
...if circumventing it as above then perhaps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Straggler, posted 02-06-2009 6:35 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Straggler, posted 02-09-2009 3:53 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 90 of 296 (498246)
02-09-2009 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
02-04-2009 9:33 AM


Mod writes:
If I do grow, then I change. This is good. I like changing - I am a different person now, then when I was six years old and I am different from when I was eighteen.
Are you a different person? Or are you the same person who has been shaped by the experiences you've had in the time you've had them?
The me aged eighteen can be said to be 'dead' since it doesn't really exist any more. It has been replaced with me aged twenty eight.
Would it not be better to think of the once 18 ringed tree as merely consisting of 10 more rings. That is: the same tree - just a lot more rings to kiss.
If I have eternal life and I grow and change, I will be so radically different by the age of five hundred, what difference would it make to my twenty eight year old self if that five hundred year old person exists? *I* don't exist, in that my personality, my beliefs and my goals don't exist any more. So if I do change over time: I don't really care if I have eternal life. It makes no difference since I will eventually no longer exist and a different person will exist.
If you don't care for eternal life involving ongoing growth then why care for the reminder of this life which involves the same thing
Why not blow your brains out now if wanting to press the self-destruct button then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 9:33 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Modulous, posted 02-09-2009 10:48 AM iano has not replied
 Message 113 by Modulous, posted 02-20-2009 6:10 AM iano has not replied

  
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