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Author Topic:   Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 31 of 296 (497705)
02-05-2009 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by iano
02-05-2009 11:21 AM


Re: Kiss my ring
Hey Iano
EXISTENCE and CONTRADICTION
You have previously stated that God does not force us to do anything against our will.
Modulus has stated that he wills his existence to cease at some point.
Yet it seems that God will force Modulus to exist eternally.
This seems contradictory?
LOGIC and HORROR
You have also told me previously that "God is logic".
Logically an eternal existence equates to either an eternity of personal change or an eternity of personal stagnation.
There is no other logical conclusion. Is there?
Modulus has stated that he finds both these possible alternatives to be "horrific".
Thus not only will God force Modulus to exist against his will he will also be forcing Modulus to experience that which he has declared himself to consider "horrific".
Could it be that we will all ultimately reside in the same eternal realm and that whether this is considered heaven or hell is merely a matter of personal perspective?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by iano, posted 02-05-2009 11:21 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 02-05-2009 5:48 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 36 by iano, posted 02-05-2009 5:59 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 38 of 296 (497719)
02-05-2009 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by iano
02-05-2009 5:48 PM


Re: Kiss my ring
I intended my participation in this thread to be relatively drive-by. I should have known that invoking debate with you would not allow that level of superficiality........
Straggler writes:
You have previously stated that God does not force us to do anything against our will.
Modulus has stated that he wills his existence to cease at some point.
Yet it seems that God will force Modulus to exist eternally.
This seems contradictory?
Given that God forces many to die against their will I doubt that the context would support my meaning that.
Fair comment.
But the point remains that forcing Mod to an existence of eternity, a state that Mod describes as "horrific", seems rather counter to any idea of choice. He can choose eternity or eternity. Horror or horror. Hallelujah!
Now you claim that one form of eternity is marvellous and the other awful but if Mod finds them both horrific what kind of choice is that?
Change and Stagnation as Mod was describing things lent heavily upon the concept of time elapsing as well as supposing eternal personhood to be more or less a continuation of the time-bound experience. If elapsing time wasn't an element of such an existance however, then time-bound words such as change and stagnation need no longer apply.
It wouldn't strike me as reasonable to extend logical constraints arising in time to a realm where time may not exist.
I think you should raise this point with Mod himself as, despite being fairly unsatisfactory, it is the closest to a theistic get-out-clause I have seen in response to the conundrum he has posed.
If neither change nor stagnation (i.e. absence of change) then what.............?
On what basis should Mod be re-assured that eternity in God's company will not result in the alternatives of eternal change or eternal stagnation that he finds so horrific?
That is what he is asking for in his OP "letter". A reasoned re-assurance that eternity of any form will not actually be horrific for the reasons he details.
Can you or God provide that reasoned re-assurance?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 02-05-2009 5:48 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 5:44 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 56 of 296 (497889)
02-06-2009 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by iano
02-06-2009 5:44 AM


Logic Vs Faith?
Your salvation remains high on my agenda.
Well I appreciate the sentiment. Even if I do inevitably think it somewhat misguided.
Buz said something vaguely similar a short while ago. Am I doing something to inspire this reaction or do you theists say that to all the unbelievers......?
It's true that Mod doesn't get to chose just anything he likes.
Why doesn't God just allow us to cease our existence in the oblivion of nothingness should we so desire it? Is that too much to ask?
An eternity of wishing never to have been born seems an unjust punishment for something in which we had no choice (i.e. being brought into existence in the first place)
His claim that the options are equally horrific - rendering no effective choice is entirely speculative
They are based in logic. Change or stagnation. Logically neither nor both are possible options. Thus we are left with either one or the other. Both of which he considers to be horrific.
He and we don't know what eternity will be like so can't begin to suppose what that existance will involve.
This is true. But it must be acknowledged that your heavenly version of eternity is as much speculation as is Mod's.
It really comes down to a choice of:
Speculation based on logic Vs speculation based on faith.
The best way to assuage fears based on speculation and guesswork is not to speculate and guess in the first place.
Man is an inquisitive speculative beast. To deny speculation is to deny our nature.
more humble approach would be to stand back and use your knowledge of what you can observe to begin to suppose the scale of God and suppose that delivering on eternal bliss isn't beyond his capability.
It strikes me that this is a form of speculation as well. A form of speculation rooted in faith as much as Mod's speculation is rooted in logic.
Straggler writes:
If neither change nor stagnation (i.e. absence of change) then what.............?
Who knows what the realm of eternity will throw up? That's part of the whole excitement Straggler. "No eye has seen and no mind has concieved of the wonderful things that God has prepared for those who love him". It's an utter arrogance to sit here utilising that which God has given us to suppose our way to placing boundaries on what God can give us. An utter arrogance and an argument made entirely out of bootstraps.
But is not speculation rooted in faith at least equally as arrogant and equally as unfounded?
The choice seems to be speculation rooted in logic or speculation rooted in faith.
Straggler writes:
That is what he is asking for in his OP "letter". A reasoned re-assurance that eternity of any form will not actually be horrific for the reasons he details.
Can you or God provide that reasoned re-assurance?
It seems that essentially the answer to this question is No.
Any possible reassurance relies on having faith that God's plan includes that which is above and beyond logic as we know it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 5:44 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 3:55 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 57 of 296 (497898)
02-06-2009 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ICANT
02-05-2009 9:52 PM


Re: The theocratic dictatorship of heaven
Your Mother and Father had sex the sperm fertilized the egg and you are the result.
So stop blaming God for your existence. Take it up with them.
Are you saying that God does not choose which eternal souls will exist?
That eternal existence is the product of random biological processes?
What a beautiful sight. With the ability to walk on pure gold. The substance man spends his entire life on earth trying to gather up to leave for someone else to enjoy.
Your materialistic view of heaven tells us more about you than it does the nature of God or the afterlife.
An eternity of Gold....WTF? Who cares and why?
Now if you think it would be hollow and pointless gratification to be able to visit anywhere in the universe you desired, live in a city in a mansion, walk on streets of pure gold, walk through the most beautiful garden that the river flows through and maybe even get to create your own universe.
God was right when He had this message for you
I have heard you claim before that those of us who disbelive seek to be "our own God". However it seems that it is you who seeks to be a God. Not I who seeks only the nothingness of oblivion at the end of my mortal existence.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 02-05-2009 9:52 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 9:39 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 66 of 296 (497946)
02-06-2009 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by iano
02-06-2009 3:55 PM


Re: Logic Vs Faith?
You're less antagonistic than some
I have tried to be less antagonistic more recently. I do not always succeed however...
Straggler writes:
Man is an inquisitive speculative beast. To deny speculation is to deny our nature.
I agree. And when you can deflate speculative balloons with speculative pins the worth of speculation is made manifest.
Yet again you demonstrate a flair for analogy that I enjoy irrespective of any disagreement in position.
Straggler writes:
The choice seems to be speculation rooted in logic or speculation rooted in faith.
Any possible reassurance relies on having faith that God's plan includes that which is above and beyond logic as we know it.
Logic as we know it - indeed.
Well if God's logic is not logic as we know it then potentially black can be white, light can be dark, up can be down and true can be false.
All manner of "logical" contradictions are possible. In fact regarding this matter we can both be simultaneously wrong and right and all in-between.
In which case all debate is futile.
(as if we didn't know that anyway )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by iano, posted 02-06-2009 3:55 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by iano, posted 02-08-2009 7:16 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 78 of 296 (498025)
02-07-2009 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by ICANT
02-06-2009 9:39 PM


Re: The theocratic dictatorship of heaven
God does not choose which eternal being will exist. Yep I said that.
It is the product of random biological processes. Yep I said that.
So as punishment for the accident of birth we will have to suffer eternal existence whether we want it or not. Against our will. Some free-will that is.
Straggler writes:
Your materialistic view of heaven tells us more about you than it does the nature of God or the afterlife.
I wasn't the engineer or architect that drew the plans or built the New Jerusalem.
I just reported what was there.
And was reporting that it was so valuable we would trample it under our feet.
Your obsession with gold paving is bizzarre. Substances are valuable because they are rare. Take away the rarity and you take away the value.
Straggler writes:
I have heard you claim before that those of us who disbelive seek to be "our own God". However it seems that it is you who seeks to be a God. Not I who seeks only the nothingness of oblivion at the end of my mortal existence.
I do not seek to be anything. I am a child of the King and when the King comes back I will be like Him.
I have not tried to determine what I will be or where I will be. I accepted what God offered me.
How noble it must make you feel to know that you are merely fulfilling God's wishes, with no thought for your own greatness, as you progress down the path that leads you to "be like Him".
You on the other hand and Mod wants to shake your fist in God's face and say no I will have no part of your plan. Just let me cease to exist.
I shake my fist at no-one. I merely ask not to be punished with eternal existence for the accident of birth.
I merely ask not to be punished for that which I am not responsible for.
I merely ask for justice. Is your God not just ICANT?
It ain't going to happen. Sorry.
Apparently not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2009 9:39 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2009 2:06 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 79 of 296 (498036)
02-07-2009 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Modulous
02-07-2009 7:38 AM


Re: What really matters?
If have a massive brain damaging accident and I still have experiential continuity but I have lost Mod's personality (same memories/goals/beliefs/desires etc) - I don't have what matters to me in survival.
I actually have some recent personal experience of just such a case as this.
The person in question is a friend of a friend but someone whom I have known a long time. The person in question has a brain condition and is most definitely not the same person that they once were. Personality, social awareness, attitudes, emotional responses etc. etc. all seem very different. Not obviously damaged as such...just....well....different. Quite disturbingly they even intersperse recollected events told in the 'I' (e.g. I once went to Blackpool) with the past tense third person (e.g. she used to enjoy that).
It is frankly tragic to witness even though we were never personally close.
But the person is question seems quite unperturbed. They see no great loss in the person they once were no longer being present as, despite recognising this absence, as far as they are concerned 'I' exists quite happily.
Bizzarre.
I am not sure exactly what this adds to your discussion but it does seem relevant somehow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Modulous, posted 02-07-2009 7:38 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 81 of 296 (498042)
02-07-2009 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ICANT
02-07-2009 2:06 PM


Re: The theocratic dictatorship of heaven
Straggler writes:
So as punishment for the accident of birth we will have to suffer eternal existence whether we want it or not. Against our will. Some free-will that is.
Who said you had free will concerning eternal existence?
Not me, and not God.
Precisely. I do not have free-will regarding existence. Full stop.
Any free-will granted to me God within that context is pretty darned limited to the point of being all but useless.
Straggler writes:
How noble it must make you feel to know that you are merely fulfilling God's wishes, with no thought for your own greatness, as you progress down the path that leads you to "be like Him".
Actually just the opposite.
I am a very proud man with many talents, and have accomplished much in my lifetime.
But to be so helpless as to not be able to do anything to procure my eternal destiny other that throw myself on the mercy of the court of God is hard to accept.
Well let's hope for the sake of your creations that you maintain this humility while you are lording it up in your eternal realm being "as Him".
Straggler writes:
I merely ask not to be punished for that which I am not responsible for.
Providing your assumption that eternity with God would be punishment.
Well neither you nor anyone else has been able to demonstrate that Mod's dilemma (eternal change = horror AND eternal stagnation = horror) is actually not a dilemma.
ICANT writes:
I merely ask for justice. Is your God not just ICANT?
You will get justice.
How?
The horror of eternal existence as punishment for the accident of birth?
How is that justice? Please explain.
I don't want justice.
I want and have God's grace and mercy, even though I deserve justice.
So you seek more than you deserve? Well I guess that is true for all of us to an extent.
But "Seek that which you do not deserve" hardly seems fitting as an overall expression of the Christian faith does it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2009 2:06 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Modulous, posted 02-07-2009 2:44 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2009 4:37 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 85 of 296 (498063)
02-07-2009 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by ICANT
02-07-2009 4:37 PM


Re: The theocratic dictatorship of heaven
ICANT writes:
I want and have God's grace and mercy, even though I deserve justice.
So you seek more than you deserve? Well I guess that is true for all of us to an extent.
But "Seek that which you do not deserve" hardly seems fitting as an overall expression of the Christian faith does it?
ICANT writes:
But I don't seek it.
It is a present possession.
Boldening of want in the first statement by me.
OK ICANT have it your way. Let's revise things to incorporate your exact phraseology.
"Want that which you do not deserve" hardly seems fitting as an overall expression of the Christian faith does it?
But all of this is relatively off topic as compared to the main portion of my post which you ignored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2009 4:37 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 93 of 296 (498311)
02-09-2009 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by iano
02-08-2009 7:16 PM


Re: Logic Vs Faith?
Straggler writes:
Well if God's logic is not logic as we know it then potentially black can be white, light can be dark, up can be down and true can be false.
The device of a 2d creature encountering the seemingly insurmountable height of a sphere didn't require the current logic to be turned on it's head.
No matter how cleverly you phrase or conceive the problem it still amounts to speculation based on faith versus speculation based on logic.
Mod's position amounts to a logical dilemma.
Your position relies on faith based speculation that God has some sort of alternative and unknowable form of logic which negates the problem as we perceive it to be.
Straggler writes:
In which case all debate is futile.
...if circumventing it as above then perhaps.
If your position is to just assume a form of "God-logic" that nullifies all argumentss based on contradiction and reason as we know it, then.............
Well, other than pointing out just how unsatisfactory and unconvincing I find this to be I am not sure what else there is to say on the matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by iano, posted 02-08-2009 7:16 PM iano has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 116 of 296 (504113)
03-24-2009 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Modulous
02-20-2009 6:10 AM


Re: I should die hereafter - there will be time for such a word
It sounds to me like you are advocating a form of macro-evolution of personality by means of lots of micro-evolution of personality such that the two are indistinguishable even if the end result is not.
Evolution to the point where the future you and the current you are incompatible "species" despite every link in the chain being utterly compatible with the ones that surround it.
Is that a fair analogy?
(Before anyone takes me macro-micro bilogical evolution analogy to heart - Please read the OP!!!!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Modulous, posted 02-20-2009 6:10 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
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