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Author Topic:   Probability of the existence of God
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 219 (464251)
04-24-2008 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Wumpini
04-23-2008 8:20 AM


Can we assign a probability to the existence of God?
Nope. There's too many unaccountable variables.
The honest answer is that we don't know what the probability of god existing is.
I do know, however, that saying that there are two possibilities, so therefore it is 50/50 is wrong (Phat). Just because there are two possibilities does not mean that the probability of each possibility is equal. It could jsut as easily be 60/40...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Wumpini, posted 04-23-2008 8:20 AM Wumpini has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 219 (464299)
04-24-2008 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ICANT
04-24-2008 2:42 PM


You ask, Can we assign a probability to the existence of God? Again if you are talking about the God of the Bible (KJV)? Yes.
You ask what is the probability? My answer 100%
You ask how can you be so sure?
August will be the 68 Th. anniversary of my meeting Jesus and receiving Him as my personal savior. I put my life in His hands and He has never failed me. I have everything that a man could desire. I have peace, joy, happiness, and contentment. Things that money, fame and fortune can not buy.
Haven't you fail to incorporate the odds that it really wasn't Jesus that you received?
I mean, even if ever so slightly (0.0000000001%) that it was Satan deceiving you, or aliens putting thoughts in your head, that little bit of probability brings you out of the 100% realm.
If you're unwilling to consider that as a possibility, then you truley are self-dilusional.
It CANNOT be 100%.... ever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ICANT, posted 04-24-2008 2:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ICANT, posted 04-24-2008 6:09 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 219 (464300)
04-24-2008 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Wumpini
04-24-2008 2:34 PM


Re: As I said, I am not a scientist or a mathmetician
In Message 8
Wumpini writes:
I think that it is correct that we must start with an either/or proposition. Without any additional evidence or information, and with only two possibilities (God exists / God does not exist) then I believe the probability would have to be 50%.
And from your link Stephen D. Unwin - Wikipedia :
quote:
50-50 represents "maximum ignorance"

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 219 (464308)
04-24-2008 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ICANT
04-24-2008 6:09 PM


Re: Re-100%
Catholic Scientist writes:
Haven't you fail to incorporate the odds that it really wasn't Jesus that you received?
I qualified my answer by stating the God of the KJV Bible.
So?
There's still the slim possibility that aliens were brainwashing you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ICANT, posted 04-24-2008 6:09 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ICANT, posted 04-24-2008 6:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 219 (464389)
04-25-2008 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by ICANT
04-24-2008 6:47 PM


Re: Re-100%
Comparing those two Bibles I will still say I am 100% sure.
How?
If I doubt then I have no faith.
False.
Its not all or nothing. You can have a whole lot of faith, with just a little bit of doubt, or visa versa. Either way, its not 'no faith'.
Without faith it is impossible to please God. Heb. 11:6
Meh, I follow Jesus' teachings, not old jewish folklore.
God is pleased when I do things for the least of his people, whether I believe in him or not.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 219 (464581)
04-27-2008 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Wumpini
04-27-2008 11:33 AM


Re: Abiogenesis a proven theory?
Could you give me the scientific evidence to show that abiogenesis is a proven theory as you state?
I cannot locate any scientific breakthrough that proves that spontaneous generation of life has been achieved or is even possible under natural conditions! Has someone spontaneously generated a living cell?
Abiogenesis is not spontaneous generation.
The theories are incomplete, but they're working it out.
From wiki:
quote:
There is no truly "standard model" of the origin of life. But most currently accepted models build in one way or another upon a number of discoveries about the origin of molecular and cellular components for life, which are listed in a rough order of postulated emergence:
1. Plausible pre-biotic conditions result in the creation of certain basic small molecules (monomers) of life, such as amino acids. This was demonstrated in the Miller-Urey experiment by Stanley L. Miller and Harold C. Urey in 1953.
2. Phospholipids (of an appropriate length) can spontaneously form lipid bilayers, a basic component of the cell membrane.
3. The polymerization of nucleotides into random RNA molecules might have resulted in self-replicating ribozymes (RNA world hypothesis).
4. Selection pressures for catalytic efficiency and diversity result in ribozymes which catalyse peptidyl transfer (hence formation of small proteins), since oligopeptides complex with RNA to form better catalysts. Thus the first ribosome is born, and protein synthesis becomes more prevalent.
5. Proteins outcompete ribozymes in catalytic ability, and therefore become the dominant biopolymer. Nucleic acids are restricted to predominantly genomic use.

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 219 (464582)
04-27-2008 1:03 PM


It can't be 100%
Even if God, himself, flew down from the sky, landed in front of me, and told me that he existed, it would still not be a 100% probability that he existed. It could have been something other than God tricking me into thinking it was God, or I could have deluded the whole thing. Granted, it would be something like 99.9%, but it can never be 100%.

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Wumpini, posted 04-27-2008 2:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 87 by ICANT, posted 04-29-2008 1:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 219 (464644)
04-27-2008 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Wumpini
04-27-2008 2:00 PM


Re: God did come down to earth!
Actually, God did exactly that. He took on the form of a man, claimed to be equal with God, was crucified, buried, and resurrected from the dead. After this, there was over 500 witnesses who saw Him, and then He ascended into heaven. Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
That is evidence! I believe Him!
Yeah, I believe in Jesus too. I just have the intellectual honesty to say that I cannot KNOW that he is god. That's why god has this stuff called faith. If you really KNEW, then you would have no faith.
I don't having faith that I'm typing at my computer right now, I know that I am. Of course, this is not 100% knowledge, maybe I'm dreaming or actually in The Matrix
The point is that I can admit those possibilities when it comes to knowing if I'm actually sitting at my computer but you are unable to admit them when saying that you know god exists. Why is that? What are you afraid of? Admit it!
Generally in calculation of probabilities, we do not set aside some percent for the possibility that we are delusional. See my previous post. We often calculate probabilities that add up to 100%. For example in election polls, we do not hear that 99% of the people are voting for this or that candidate, and then hear that there is a 1% probability that we are all delusional and an election is not even taking place.
Well I'd say the probability that we are all delusional is a lot less than one percent. So far less that it is negligible. But it is still there. Because its negligible, we don't have to include it in the results.
As far as you being correct about god versus being delusional... I would say that the possibility of you being deluded is not negligible.
We don't even know if a god is possible, or which god is the right god. I'm pretty confident that I'm at my computer. But as far as gods go, with all the disagreement and variety, the chances of you being deluded about god are a lot higher than me being deluded about being here at my computer.
Like I said, you can't know, 100%, that god really exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Wumpini, posted 04-27-2008 2:00 PM Wumpini has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Wumpini, posted 04-27-2008 7:15 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 219 (464692)
04-28-2008 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Wumpini
04-27-2008 7:15 PM


Re: Saving Faith does not allow doubt
Like I said, you can't know, 100%, that god really exists.
I have the intellectual honesty to not attempt to ride the fence. Jesus is either God or He is not God.
I'm not attempting to ride the fence.... I believe that Jesus is God.
In John 8:24, He said, "Except you believe that I am He you will die in your sins." That means that there is no room for doubt.
No it doesn't. It doesn't say anything about doubt. You're assuming that belief has no doubt and then quoting a passage on belief and claiming that it has no doubt. Your reasoning is most circular.
I believe, and I have a little doubt. Its not big deal really. I'm just being honest with myself. I could claim 100% belief and say that I KNOW god exists too. I'm just not going to lie to/delude myself
Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
With faith, there is no room for doubt.
That passage doesn't say there is no room for doubt either
have complete assurance that there is a spiritual realm that exists in the world today that cannot be seen or understood by those who think only in physical terms.
Complete assurance means 100%.
And 100% means lacking the intellectual honesty to admit that it is possible that you could be wrong.
Why are you unable to admit that? You're claiming that it is impossible for you to be wrong about god's existence. That's bullshit.
Probability that God exists based upon my faith: 100%
Well now your just contradicting yourself...
If its based on faith then it isn't complete assurance. Complete assurance is the lack of faith.
And God does not allow those who truly believe in Him, to doubt His existence. Even if that doubt is only 1% or less.
Then your god is worshiped by droids.
But all this pedantic arguing about semantics is ghey anyways.
I feel I proved my case about being unable to have 100% knowledge unless you are not being honest with yourself.
The question is why can't you admit the possibility that you are wrong about god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Wumpini, posted 04-27-2008 7:15 PM Wumpini has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Wumpini, posted 04-28-2008 10:51 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 219 (464696)
04-28-2008 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Wumpini
04-28-2008 10:51 AM


Re: Saving Faith does not allow doubt
I quoted John 8:24 and Romans 1:23 to show that we are required by God to believe in God. We are told that we have no excuse. In other words, we are told that we have no reason to doubt!
I don't draw that conlcusion but you are welcome to your own interpretation of course.
But let's not quote mine the Bible for definitions. Instead, let's think about this rationally.
If you are convinced that something exists, then what probability would you place upon that?
A very high probability that can be ever sooo close, but never, 100%.
Therefore, the fact that I have faith means that I am convinced that God exists. I have no doubt.
That's circular too: "I believe because I believe."
I know you believe. And you claim no doubt. I don't think it is possible to be both intellectually honest and without doubt. You are deluding yourself into a position of no doubt when you should be questioning your beliefs.
Therefore, the probability that I would assign to the existence of God is 100%.
How do you know it is God? How do you know that it isn't Satan tricking you into thinking that he is God?
and you didn't answer my previous questions...
quote:
And 100% means lacking the intellectual honesty to admit that it is possible that you could be wrong.
Why are you unable to admit that? You're claiming that it is impossible for you to be wrong about god's existence. That's bullshit.
quote:
The question is why can't you admit the possibility that you are wrong about god?
By saying that its 100% you are saying that it is impossible for you to be wrong.
And you didn't touch on how god giving you undoubtable confidence makes you his robot:
quote:
And God does not allow those who truly believe in Him, to doubt His existence. Even if that doubt is only 1% or less.
Then your god is worshiped by droids.
Eh?
If you assign a probability of less than 100% to the existence of God, then you are not convinced that God exists. You may be saying that it is probable that God exists. However, that is not Biblical faith.
Biblical faith requires being convinced in God and His promises, and being assured that God will deliver upon those promises.
I am convinced of God. I'm just honest enought to admit that I cannot know that God exist without any shred of a doubt nor do I refuse to admit the possibility that I might be wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Wumpini, posted 04-28-2008 10:51 AM Wumpini has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Wumpini, posted 04-28-2008 1:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 219 (464706)
04-28-2008 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Wumpini
04-28-2008 1:34 PM


Re: Why can't I admit the possibility that I am wrong about God!
Intellectually, I could be wrong about the existence of anything.
But from the standpoint of faith, I am completely convinced.
Then this faith stuff is just made up B.S. that is preventing you from maintaining intellect.
Let us take a physical example. If I was sitting in my car, using your logic, then I could not say with complete assurance that I was sitting in my car.
It is possible my car doesn't exist. It is possible I am psychotic. It is possible I do not exist. It is possible the universe does not even exist. There may be a million possibilities.
However, I would still be completely convinced that I was sitting in my car. Based upon my perception, and my view of reality there would be no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the situation I perceived to be true was actually true. I could say with 100% probability that I was sitting in my car, and that would not be intellectually dishonest in my opinion.
And your opinion is wrong. Maybe you just don't understand what 100% really means. I think you're using it incorrectly because you've basically contradicted yourself. With those million possibilities, you cannot know, 100% that you're sitting in your car. It can be so close that it is negligible and using 100% could imply that so its not that big of a deal.
The same is true with my perception of the existence of God. It is possible I am psychotic. It is possible that I do not exist. It is possible that none of us exist. Again, there may be a million possibilities.
However, based upon my perception and my view of reality there is no doubt in my mind that the situation I perceive to be true is true. I can say with 100% probability that God exists, and I do not believe that is being intellectually dishonest. Actually, in my opinion, it would be dishonest for me to say that I doubt the existence of God when I do not.
And there's a difference in that we all can accept that cars and poeple both exists and that people can sit in cars. However, with the huge variety of poeple's gods that they all know that exists, and while they cannot all be correct, the chances of you being deluded are way higher than the chance that you're not really sitting in a car.
Enough that people are gonna call you out for saying that you know100% that god exists, where they won't so much if you claim to be sitting in a car.
I am not God's robot because He has not given me undoubtable confidence. He has given each of us free will. Each of us can make our own decision about whether God exists or not (and we do). I can choose to believe that God does not exist. I can choose to believe that maybe God exists. Or I can choose to be convinced that God exists. The choice is mine.
I don't believe you at all. You could choose to believe that god doesn't exists but you can't admit that you don't know, 100%, that he exists!
If you can simmply choose, willy nilly, that you believe that god exists 100%, then you are just making stuff up in your head and purposefully deluding yourself to believe the things that you think that you should be believing.
I find this to be total dishonesty and an utter slap in the face of God. Hell, you practically just kicked Jesus in the nuts!
I choose to believe that God exists! All that means is that I have faith. I am convinced (100% sure) that God exists.
That's bullshit.
And if you've chosen this 100% belief, then how do you know you've chosen the right God? You could simply be wrong about which god you've chosen to believe, without a shred of doubt, exists! That's no where near 100%.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Wumpini, posted 04-28-2008 1:34 PM Wumpini has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Wumpini, posted 04-28-2008 3:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 219 (464713)
04-28-2008 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Wumpini
04-28-2008 3:45 PM


Re: The problem is a lack of faith!
Do you believe that Jesus was 100% convinced in the existence of God? Do you think that Jesus Christ was wrong when He claimed that God exists? What probability do you think that Jesus would place on the existence of God? How about his apostles, were they convinced?
I think even Jesus had his doubts....
He was made man and men have doubts. What do you think he was doing during his teenage years? Prolly trying to figure out if he really was the son of god. And if Jesus absolutely KNEW, then God cheated. That would make Jesus' sacrifice no longer a sacrifice. How easy would it have been to walk right up to the cross if you knew that you'd be fine anyways?
Its only a sacrifice if he made a sacrifice, and knowing that everything was going to be okay anyways makes it no longer a sacrifice.
Hell, Jesus even asked God why he forsake him.....
And its like that sig I've seen around here:
"If you know you're goind be raised from the dead in three days, dying isn't a sacrifice, its a painful inconveniece."
You are not convinced that God exists! You are not convinced that Jesus Christ is who He claimed to be! You lack faith!
No, I'm not convinced that God exists. I believe that he exists because of my faith. If you really know that God does in fact exists, then you don't need any faith at all. You know.
You do not even understand what it means to have faith from a Biblical perspective.
Correction:
I do not even understand what you think it means to have faith from a Biblical perspective.
Because you lack faith you are attempting to attribute your lack of faith to others. You are in effect saying because I cannot have assurance, then no one can have assurance. You are even implying that Jesus cannot have assurance.
Only if Jesus was man. And yes, no man can know with 100% assurance that god exists. It is impossible. For you to claim that means that you're either crazy or lying. That or you're just using the phrase improperly.
I am convinced that God exists! I am convinced that Jesus is the son of God! I have faith!
If by convinced you mean know 100%, then you are contradicting yourself.
Faith is for things that you don't know for sure.

And I see you've avoided those 'tough' questions I asked again....
How do you know its god?
How do you know you have the right god?
How can all those people who have the wrong god(s), KNOW that those gods exist too?
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see ABE:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Wumpini, posted 04-28-2008 3:45 PM Wumpini has not replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 219 (464717)
04-28-2008 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by iano
04-28-2008 4:13 PM


Re: The problem is a lack of faith!
I do agree that you are using a dictionary definition of faith whereas he is applying the biblical definition
The Hebrews 11 defintion?
That's Old Testament. I follow Jesus' teachings.
whilst permitting 100% conviction, doesn't demand it in order that it be faith
Jesus said that the blessed are those who believe and who have not seen.
Saying that you KNOW means that you have seen and that is why you believe. I believe whilst not KNOWING, as Jesus commanded.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by iano, posted 04-28-2008 4:13 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by iano, posted 04-28-2008 5:48 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 219 (464784)
04-29-2008 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by iano
04-28-2008 5:48 PM


Re: The problem is a lack of faith!
CS writes:
The Hebrews 11 defintion? That's Old Testament. I follow Jesus' teachings.
Er...Hebrews is in the New Testament CS
Duh-huh
Jesus said that the blessed are those who believe and who have not seen.
..which is remarkably like the Hebrews definition of belief. Faith is conviction (belief) in things not seen. Blessed indeed are those that have such a faith. They belong to a most privileged category of people called "the sons on God"
-
Saying that you KNOW means that you have seen and that is why you believe. I believe whilst not KNOWING, as Jesus commanded.
The KJV has an interesting way of putting the Hebrews 11:1 verse.
quote:
"Faith the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".
Sight is one way for a thing to be evidenced. So too smell, touch, taste, hearing. Faith is another way for a thing to be evidenced - according to that verse. Call it a sixth sense if you like. As effective a way to demonstrate God to a person as is sight and touch a way to evidence that computer screen on front of you right this minute. The biblical sense of faith is anything but blind...
I'm familiar with your position on faith, but..... it doesn't seem to add up....
Jesus says that the blessed are those who believe in him without evidence (unless he just meant that the blessed are the people who have not received the evidence throught their eyeballs (seen)... but I doubt that). If faith is the evidence that allows you to believe then you wouldn't be blessed in the way Jesus described.
Also, if faith is the evidence for a belief, and you have faith because you believe, then the evidence is circular.
Although it might be your first reaction, rather that respond with the dictionary definition of faith you might want to consider how the Bible utilises the word. And re-examine what Jesus is saying in the light of that. People know God exists by virtue of evidence only. By non-dictionary defined faith...
I don't believe in a god who picks and chooses which people believe in him and which one don't. Especially if he is going to punish the people that he chose to not believe in him.
They are indeed blessed - those who don't know God exists by sight but who know God exists by this other way. For to know of Gods existance by means of this specific way is to be saved.
Oh, so you do think Jesus was talking about the blessed being people who have received the evidence in some way other than through their eyeballs!? It wasnt about just that because Thomas put his finger in Jesus' side as well. I think Jesus is talking about evidence, in general, not just seeing
Here's the passage from KJV John 20:24-28 :
quote:
24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
Thomas was faithless before he touhed and saw Jesus. Thomas did not get his faith magically from God and then believe in Jesus because of the evidence that was his faith.
No, Thomas got his faith when he saw that it really was Jesus and when he touched him. He got his faith from evidence, and then he believed. His faith couldn't be the evidence because he didn't have faith until he had evidence. The evidence is what gave him faith, not visa versa.
If you believe in god because of evidence that you have witnessed (one example being this magic faith that God gives to the chosen) then you are like Thomas, and unlike the blessed.
What could be a greater blessing than that?
A god that gives all his people the ability to believe in him and doesn't pick and choose his "sons".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by iano, posted 04-28-2008 5:48 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by iano, posted 04-29-2008 1:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 91 by ICANT, posted 04-29-2008 1:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 100 by iano, posted 04-29-2008 5:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 219 (464786)
04-29-2008 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Wumpini
04-28-2008 6:25 PM


Re: Intellecutal Dishonesty
I had to look up on google what the term intellectual dishonesty meant. It is the advocacy of a position that the advocate knows or believes to be false. I have not knowingly committed such an offense.
It can be used in another way too. That is to refer to when people decide to not be honest with themselves and believe what they want to believe despite.... whatever.
The probability of 100% that I have placed upon the existence of God is based upon my subjective faith which has developed based upon my analysis of objective evidence. I am as convinced that God exists as I am that I exist. I believe that I can place a probability of 100% on my own existence without committing intellectual dishonesty either.
But as has been explained, 100% is not actually attainable. Even in considering the possibility of your own existence, you can't get to 100%. To continue to believe this is what some refer to as intellectual dishonesty.
Have you considered the possibility that I do not know how to debate? As far as I know, I have never engaged in a formal debate in my life. Maybe with time I will learn to develop more logical arguments.
This is a great place to learn how to debate. Surely, someone will point out almost every mistake you make. Also, you can reveiw your peers' positions in the debates and how they are advanced and defended. Which arguments will work and which ones are PRATT (Points Refuted A Thousand Times).
Also, depending on your profession, honing these skill can be helpful in real life.
This is something that I would be interested in learning more about. It seems that evolution is a model of changes rather than origins. I get the same impression from cosmological origins. That the Big Bang Theory is a model of changes in the universe rather than origins. I think I will search out threads that are dealing more with the questions that I am attempting to answer.
This is a great site (my favorite), for learning about those things. I'll see you on the battlefield
My faith or belief in the existence of God is not one of those questions.
Get more comfortable with the setting and how anonymous strangers are going to be treating you before you open yourself up wide and let them have at it.
In time, you can find that we can have constructive debates on these issues and learn a lot from each other.
Welcome to EvC. You'll see me around.

Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down, "Science"
He who makes a beast out of himself, gets rid of the pain of being a man.
-Avenged Sevenfold, "Bat Country"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Wumpini, posted 04-28-2008 6:25 PM Wumpini has not replied

  
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