Evolution of the Soul

prophex Do you mean your sense of self? We have the impression of an existence of something seperate within our body because of the way the nervous system operates. Our nervous system constantly informs our brain of different sensations ,heat,cold,pressure, texture, sight, sound, etc. However there is no equivalent feedback system in the brain since no nervous system extends from the brain to itself. Therefore we have a feeling of self that is the brain but we cannot feel sensation from the brain. This is why the sensee of self seems to come from within our heads.

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But I realize now that these people were not in science; they didn’t understand it. They didn’t understand technology; they didn’t understand their time.

What is the second law and how does it support your claim? Which leading scientists and what is it they say that leads to the conclusion of randomness? But the Bible is not a reliable source of evidence, and Jesus second coming is a matter of faith not science. But this is by no means certain, there is a long time between now and when that might happen. I didn’t say that Christianity stole the idea of an afterlife. Great, we wont be subjected to any of your depressing songs anymore then? I bet you don’t get many dates do you?The world isn’t all about one’s relationship with God, there are many people who are completely fulfilled without invoking this fantasy character. You may BELIEVE that it’s all about YOUR relationship with God, but that doesn’t mean that this is true. You have a great many assumptions there, and none really make much sense.For example, why assume that animals do not have souls, you earlier mentioned Ruash and Nepesh, did you study these words closely?I do not understand what you mean by “how did the soul come to be using the theory of evolution”, could you explain a little more, I am maybe just not reading it properly.“Did souls evolve?” Well one thing is certain, the concept of the soul did evolve, that is why we have neoplatonism. Briefly, the idea of a soul has evolved from a flesh animating ”spark’ that wants to return to its origin (call the origin God if you like) to a pure ”spark’. Since Christians believe that God is pure and supremely good, He could only accept back a soul that was pure and good, a tainted soul would corrupt the pureness of God, thus, you best live a good life and keep a clean soul.This is all philosophical and can be argued over until the cows come home.Keep searching.Brian.

Mike you're quite right IMHO.Mike is offended because intellectually, it's the most absurd, in that it has no logic. And also it's just plain untrue. I agree. Don't let it get to you though, because I think everyone knows his statement is a nonsense anyway. It's just a false statement. You made some good logical observations in my opinion.It's arrogant, and it's also the theist-mindset many have, in that, they are so convicted of their belief, they think that everybody else is in "denial" of it. I speak from experience.The true form of his argument is;I (Prophex) and those of my religion, "feel God".
Therefore everybody feels God.Since the major term "feel God" is referred to in the conclusion, but not every member
of the minor term pertains to the major, then nothing so silly can be concluded.Since Prophex and his believers do not constitute "everybody", then you cannot say anything about what "everybody" feels. It's that simple.Maybe Prophex made a mistake. I personally think he just made a statement without thinking too much about it's implications.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-22-2005 10:49 AM

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The soul is non-physical, the brain is physical and the mind resides between the two.

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So, when people with temporal lobe epilepsy have a strong tendency to be hyper-religious, doesn't this imply that mind is a product of the brain?

But I don't know how the mind affects the body, if thats what your asking, thats a question for a brain surgeon.But I'll give it a shot...An idea is not a physical thing and it comes from your brain. Now, an idea comes from firing neurons, but the neurons themselves are not the idea, nor is the firing the idea, but it still comes from a physical thing even though it isn't.I would say the mind, too, is not a physical thing, even though it comes from the brain as well.ABE: Whatever the DM's running, but honestly I haven't gamed in a while.This message has been edited by Catholic Scientist, 10-22-2005 11:11 AM

Yes, the mind comes from the brain but I don't see why religious epileptics imply this.

Our views are very similiar. Here's mine Message 27But what I'm calling the soul, you are calling the spirit and what you are calling the soul, I am calling the mind. To me it seems that the will and emotions come from the mind and the 'me' is my mind. what d'ya mean?

Well, I would say that an idea is a physical thing; its a physical arrangement in spacetime of firing neurons. But then you haven't solved anything. If the mind is software on the hardware of the brain, then the soul cannot interface with it. Just like in a computer, the only interface with the software is through changes to the hardware.The mind cannot operate in the way that you claim if its merely software. The mind cannot be the interface between soul and brain if the only interface to the mind is through the brain. So what does the soul interact with? The brain? How does the immaterial affect the physical? It's impossible.We know then that the soul cannot be detected, because it cannot affect or be affected by the physical. And we know that we are physical, thus, the soul cannot be said to exist.

Not sure what an "idea" is, but it doesn't matter--at some point you need to reference consciousness. And that's the hard part.So far, consciousness and qualia simply has been shown to not be addressable via science (Chalmer's "hard problem"). If you want to see a really, really good attempt, see:O'Regan, J.K. & Noe, A. (2001). A sensorimotor account of vision and visual consciousness. Behavioral and Brain Sciences 24: 939-1031.I'd really appreciate to get your comments on the ideas expressed in this paper, if you're interested. The main paper is about 25 pages long; the rest is reaction / response commentary. I think your insight on the paper would be interesting.BenP.S. Seriously. It would really please me if you found time to read the paper and discuss it. I think you'd have interesting things to say about it.

If you placed identical atoms in the same arrangement, you would not get a person having an idea, you'd get a dead body. If you placed identical atoms in the same arrangement, you would have a computer running software.While our brain is like a computer, they are not similiar enough to say that because a computers software is only affected by hardware then a persons mind is only affected by the brain. Obviously I have no evidence but I just think the computer analogy is a little off. But I think it is more than just software. The only physical interface the mind has is the brain, I'm saying there is a spiritual interface with the soul too. No, the mind. And the mind interacts with the brain. Not while considering ideas to be a non-physical thing. I disagree with the bolded part. The soul can affect the physical through the mind. And when you say that the soul cannot be detected I assume you mean objectively.

Identical atoms, in identical points in space, with identical energy levels, in identical interactions, with identical histories?You'd have an exact copy of the same person. It's just chemistry. If you didn't duplicate the same energy levels, you'd have a computer that wasn't running at all. So, back one more step? Now the mind is not the interface; the mind has the interface. So, now, instead of just the physical body that everyone agrees is present, we have:The body
The mind, which we don't know exists
The mind's spiritual interface, which we don't know exists
The soul, which we don't know existsAt every point, it's just one more retreat from you, a retreat into more invented entities. Where does it stop? If the mind is physical, the soul cannot affect it. If the mind is not physical then it cannot affect the body. So there's no way for the soul to affect the physical. I mean at all.

And yet, when science has attempted to recreate life in a tank, it does not just happen by adding the right mixture of chemicals.Let me ask you a question, Frog. If you died tonite, would you cease to exist in all forms? Would your ideas exist only in what yyou have written down and of that, which is read by others?Einstein is dead, yet his memes...his theories live on.This gets back to one of my questions in another thread, namely:If a planet in space (maybe this one) were destroyed and all life extinguished, would anything remain of that reality besides external memory impressions from that reality?And if matter can be neither created nor destroyed, can thoughts ever be said to have an origin apart from the animal thinking them?

Some day I plan to read and probably "take apart" from
http://www.carlzimmer.com/
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Sorry I am not ready to discuss that.

Not yet it doesn't, but we're getting pretty close. Self-assembling membranes? Check. Custom genetic sequences? Check. Self-replicating, self-repairing molecules? Check.There's no difference between the chemical interactions in your body and the chemical interactions in a test tube. Chemistry is chemistry, and anybody who thinks that life is not just chemistry is someone who would really find a basic introductory class on biochemistry very interesting. I don't know. But I do know that nothing different would happen to me than what's going to happen to you. I don't understand the question. I would think it would be obvious that thoughts are not shared; thoughts exist within one brain only, and we use language to try to stimulate similiar thoughts within the brain of others, a process called "communication."

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Yes, the mind comes from the brain but I don't see why religious epileptics imply this.

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1) Because we see personality/behavior/sensory ability/memory abilities/etc. changes of all sorts in response to localized brain damage.Look up the story of Phineas Gage sometime.2) Didn't you say that the mind was the go-between for the soul and the brain?If you agree that the mind is produced by the brain, I don't understand how the soul fits in.For example, if someone has a stroke and loses some impulse control and begins displaying a lot of inappropriate, violent behavior, where does the soul comne into the picture? Has the part of the soul that interacts with the brain and mind get damaged, too?