GOD Bless John Paul II

Crap!

This has nothing to do with this thread.

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Take it elsewhere. This has no relevance to this thread.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar responds to me:

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Crap!

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Well, maybe he doesn't.Do you know what the leading cause of death is in Africa?Do you know what the Pope has told Africans to do in the face of that leading cause of death? No, not protect yourself. Instead, you must eschew all those protections and leave yourself completely vulnerable to death. And when you do end up dying from it, it's your own fault.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Rrhain rants:

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Just because a person is capable of doing something good does not make him something other than evil.

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No, he was not evil. He was a man. Imperfect. Good qualities, bad qualities. Just like you and me.Just because you don't like him doesn't make him evil.

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(*ahem*)

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You can cut all the goddamn cutesy little throat clearing and eye blinking. Your condescention is insulting.

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He is part of the reason that there is a humanitarian tragedy in Africa.

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Yes, just like every other western leader who's been in power since the AIDS crisis broke. And you stupid point is?

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

berberry responds to me:

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Just because a person is capable of doing something good does not make him something other than evil.

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No, he was not evil. He was a man. Imperfect. Good qualities, bad qualities. Just like you and me.

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And when those bad qualities outweigh the good qualities, and when the bad qualities are considered virtues held onto so tightly that they will never, ever be repented despite repeated evidence of the harm they cause to real people's lives, then the person goes from beyond simply "flawed" and into the realm of evil.I handily admit that people are not purely one thing. I directly said so...and I notice you cut that part out. Why is that?But the fact that a person isn't horrendous in every single action he does does not mean he isn't evil. It isn't like I'm accusing him of going around kicking puppies and stealing candy from children like some stereotypical bad guy.What I'm saying is that he advocated policies that directly resulted in the death of thousands of individuals...and then blamed the people who were dying for their fate.And that's just one thing. Shall I go into the child abuse scandal? His actions regarding gay people? His absolute arrogance regarding the other two major branches of Christianity?

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Just because you don't like him doesn't make him evil.

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Of course not.He isn't evil because I don't like him. It's the other way around. I don't like him because he is evil.

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Yes, just like every other western leader who's been in power since the AIDS crisis broke. And you stupid point is?

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(*blink!*)You did not just say that, did you?Do you have any understanding about how, say, the United States' policy on prevention of HIV in Africa changed when Bush took over from Clinton? There used to be active research into such things as a virucidal cream that a woman could insert in the morning that would reduce the risk of transmission. She wouldn't have to tell anybody, she wouldn't have to risk her physical safety by telling her partner to wear a condom, she could have some sort of protection in case she were raped, etc.But not any more. That "promotes sex" and thus has been quashed.But that said, what makes you think that I don't consider those other leaders to be evil, too? If the Pope is evil when he does it, why would anybody else get a pass when they do it? I don't think the Pope is evil simply because of his response to HIV, but someone who has no compassion for people who are dying has an awful lot of good deeds to do in order to atone for such a crime.The fact the he was proud of his lack of compassion only makes it worse.Oh, by the way, Wojtyla doesn't seem to have a problem throwing around the e-word, himself. You do recall that he called gays "intrinsically evil," yes?So if he doesn't have a problem judging people to be evil, then he should expect the same in return.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Rrhain writes me:

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And when those bad qualities outweigh the good qualities, and when the bad qualities are considered virtues held onto so tightly that they will never, ever be repented despite repeated evidence of the harm they cause to real people's lives, then the person goes from beyond simply "flawed" and into the realm of evil.

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Then this is just a judgement call that we're going to have to disagree about. I do agree that the bad outweighs the good by far (I would've been happy to help you compile your list - you left out a thing or two), but the way you say it makes it sound as though this pope had purely evil intentions and I don't believe that. To say he was evil - at least as I interpret the word - is to say that this pope deliberately set out to kill millions of people.One of the saddest things about this pope is that his was a move back to the right in the papacy. His election ended a fairly long run of moderately liberal popes. Had most any of those other popes been in power during this time, the world would be a better place today - at least in some ways.

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(*blink!*)

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(*have you got something in your eye?*)

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Do you have any understanding about how, say, the United States' policy on prevention of HIV in Africa changed when Bush took over from Clinton?

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Of course I do, but if you want an example of someone I would consider evil, it's George W. Bush. George Bush may love his daughters, but beyond that as far as I'm concerned he is pure evil.My point was that for any leader who might have been better than the pope, you can still find some humanitarian crisis somewhere in the world that that leader could have done much, much more to relieve. So it becomes a question of degrees, and to me the word 'evil' sounds like an absolute.

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But that said, what makes you think that I don't consider those other leaders to be evil, too?

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Maybe you do. I don't; I would reserve that term for only the worst.

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Wojtyla doesn't seem to have a problem throwing around the e-word, himself. You do recall that he called gays "intrinsically evil," yes?

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I had forgotten about that specific quote, but yes I do remember it. I hadn't forgotten the attitude that produced it, so it really doesn't make much difference in how I feel about him. He was no saint. He was a man who missed an opportunity at greatness because of his own bigotry. But again, to call him evil is to call say that he committed genocide, at least as I see it. I can't go quite that far with you.Speaking of him being a saint, that may be a tragedy waiting to happen if the news reports I've heard are accurate. I don't think he was evil, but to enshrine this man's deadly polices with beatification is an idea that makes my stomach turn.

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

berberry responds to me:

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but the way you say it makes it sound as though this pope had purely evil intentions

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And in a great many number of things, he did. The actions he was witnessed engaging in were done for no other reason than to consolidate his power, indicate his authority over the lives of people, and resulted in nothing but misery and death for which he felt no sense of shame.That is, indeed, pure evil. We're all capable of it at one point or another. But there comes a point when someone does it over and over and over again that it ceases to be the actions of someone who didn't know any better, who didn't realize just how far afield he had gone, just how far astray he had wandered, but rather the actions of someone who deliberately, consciously, and purposefully did it, would do it again, and is actually trying to figure out how to go about it again.

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To say he was evil - at least as I interpret the word - is to say that this pope deliberately set out to kill millions of people.

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I know.He did.He knew his actions were killing people, but he did not stop. No matter how many times it was brought to his attention that his philosophy of life would lead to the suffering, misery, and death of millions of people, no matter how many times it was brought to his attention that his philosophy in life was actually leading to the suffering, misery, and death of thousands of people, he refused to budge.If that is not deliberately setting out to kill people, I don't know what is.This is what he said in 1989: If you get AIDS, it's your own fault, sayeth Wojtyla, it's your own damned fault. Never mind that it's the women who are the ones who are getting infected most. Never mind that monogamy only works when both partners are practicing it and she can remain monogamous all she wants but she's still going to get infected from his screwing around. It's her fault. She "violated the authentically human sense of sexuality."

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My point was that for any leader who might have been better than the pope, you can still find some humanitarian crisis somewhere in the world that that leader could have done much, much more to relieve.

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Nobody can fight all the battles. I'm well aware of that. But there is a difference between being having to choose your battles and thus being unable to make a situation better and deliberately choosing to make a situation worse.

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But again, to call him evil is to call say that he committed genocide, at least as I see it. I can't go quite that far with you.

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That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. I have laid out my criteria for why I call him evil and I don't expect others to fall in line.

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I don't think he was evil, but to enshrine this man's deadly polices with beatification is an idea that makes my stomach turn.

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But that's precisely my point. People seem to think that the truly horrendous things he did were actually good things and that he should be made an object of worship and devotion. He wouldn't have done them if he didn't think that they were something worthy of worship and devotion.If that isn't evil, I don't know what is.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

You know, the more I go through life the more I think that the concept of evil is not only useless in describing the world but actually harmful to our understanding of it. Attributed the word 'evil' to the Pope tells us nothing about him, only something about the attributer. But it becomes all to easy to go from "he's evil" to "he did this because he's evil" - bollocks, says I.No-one has ever, in the entire history of the universe, done anything because they were 'evil'. It doesn't take evil people to commit evil acts. It takes normal people. Decent people. People who believe in their cause.

deleted by authorThis message has been edited by contracycle, 04-04-2005 07:15 AM

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No-one has ever, in the entire history of the universe, done anything because they were 'evil'. It doesn't take evil people to commit evil acts. It takes normal people. Decent people. People who believe in their cause.

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Agreed 100%

He will be missed by his faithful, as will the Shah of Iran.In all these cases, the sentimentality arises from their heirarchical position. Virtual none of their followers meet them, and therefore cannot know if he was a good man or otherwise; but as we see in scenes from Rome, people are in tears, all because of a man they likely never met. They ATTRIBUTE holiness to him becuase he was head of the church. All these tears and histrionics are a real-time demonstration of how the delusions of power and constructed sociology can affect the mentality of individuals. And not for the better.My feelings on the Pope are well represented by this article:

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The Pope has blood on his hands

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The Pope did great damage to the church, and to countless Catholics

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Terry Eagleton
Monday April 4, 2005
The Guardian

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John Paul II became Pope in 1978, just as the emancipatory 60s were declining into the long political night of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. As the economic downturn of the early 70s began to bite, the western world made a decisive shift to the right, and the transformation of an obscure Polish bishop from Karol Wojtyla to John Paul II was part of this wider transition. The Catholic church had lived through its own brand of flower power in the 60s, known as the Second Vatican Council; and the time was now ripe to rein in leftist monks, clap-happy nuns and Latin American Catholic Marxists. All of this had been set in train by a pope - John XIII - whom the Catholic conservatives regarded as at best wacky and at worst a Soviet agent.

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The Pope has blood on his hands | Terry Eagleton | The Guardian

That may have been his position, I don't know, but that isn't what your quote says. The quote says that it would be immoral to prevent yourself getting HIV by violating 'the authentically human sense of sexuality', actually it says that it would be wrong to champion such an action but obviously that would be because the action itself is sinful.So your infectee is still OK with God at least, whereas if she had used a condom she would have been sinning.Your quote certainly doesn't back up the claim that the Pope's attitude was that it was 'your own damn fault'.TTFN,WK

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You know, the more I go through life the more I think that the concept of evil is not only useless in describing the world but actually harmful to our understanding of it. Attributed the word 'evil' to the Pope tells us nothing about him, only something about the attributer. But it becomes all to easy to go from "he's evil" to "he did this because he's evil" - bollocks, says I.

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No-one has ever, in the entire history of the universe, done anything because they were 'evil'. It doesn't take evil people to commit evil acts. It takes normal people. Decent people. People who believe in their cause.

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I completely agree.It's too easy to label someone evil to distance them from ourselves.

I do believe there is Evil but I also condemn any attempt to use that to distance such people from ourselves. I do think it is often misused though, calling things evil that are simply venal.IMHO the Roman Catholic dogma relating to homosexuality, priestly marriage, stem cell research, birth control and a few others are wrong, but they are not evil.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion