GOD Bless John Paul II

I don't quite understand your reason for wanting to close down this thread. If people are having a good time debating, as long as the topic doesn't wander off too far away, why on earth would you want to close it down?

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Again, IMHO, total nonsense. I see no way that he can be held responsible for ANY HIV deaths.

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He can and he will.

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Now you may find that sad, I know I do, but it certainly not evil. The Church's position is that contraception ( other than a brief nod to timing and abstenence) is a mortal sin. Use a rubber and your soul goes to hell. In their viewpoint your soul is more important than your life.

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And that ius precisely why no religious instution, especially christian ones, should ever, ever be treated as humane, as liberal, as contributing to human wellfare or the betterment of the species.Because when it comes right down to it, they do not in fact care about human life at all. They care more about dogma than life; more about their precious revelations than actual warm, breathing, loving, sexual human beings.This message has been edited by contracycle, 04-05-2005 04:01 AM

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Any further comments that are appropriate for a deceased person?

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"In the richest corridors the world has ever seen
A polar-white skullcap floats by
This propaganda is long overdue:
The Beast in Rome must die!"- A0S3, Popes Eye Steak

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anyway, i hope my post is of interest to other users. this is the end of the debate as far as I'm concerned.

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You post was of use to me, mick.I had no idea that the missionaries and other representatives of the Catholic Church were actively lying to the people most at risk about condoms WRT HIV protection, and that this was deliberate and widespread.That makes them complicit and active encouragement in lots and lots of preventable suffering and death.And here I thought that the Catholic Church was the smart, educated, kind one. They are just as sick and deranged as the clinic bonbers as far as I'm concerned, only worse, because they are less honest.

The church needs a thread of its own to defend itself and/or to have us expose organized religion for what it is.The kindly and deceased Pope is the topic of THIS thread, however, and debating church politics over his corpse is inappropriate, would you not agree?In an odd sort of way, John Paul II had controversy surrounding him much of his life and now in his eulogy, people are STILL discussing and debating.I'm with Jar on this one, though. Say a few words in rememberance and lets close this thread and move on...I will start a religious debate thread. (another one!) Well Troy, if YOU died, and we were all at your funeral, would you want us debating gay rights and fighting it out with conservatives over your still warm dead corpse?
(Oops...you probably will say "yes"! The point is that we can take our debate to another thread. This thread is to respect a great man...not to dissect the politics of the institution behind him.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-05-2005 08:14 AM

i think that calls for a list of true stories behind saints. i'm sure he's not the first wretch.

to him who was able to lead people in the path they wanted to follow and to inspire the followers of other paths to follow his as well. he was a great man. perhaps not a good one, but one of great power and persuasion.

I personally don't mind. If people want to do it, go for it. If he was truly a great man, he would have wanted people to discuss about the politics of the institution behind him. If he wasn't a great man, like say Mussulini or other not-so-great men in the past, then no he would not want people to discuss the politics of the institution behind him.Democracy for all!!!

I'm taking bets on who is going to be the first to be suspended on this thread I promised not to keep debating here, but I couldn't resist one observation. I did find it amusing there were complaints about "arguing over the man's corpse while it's still warm". Troy, would you rather have people argue politics over your corpse, or would you rather have your corpse put into an open coffin draped in red velvet and have a bunch of politicians pass by and cry over it to improve their standing with the religious community in their own countries? Is arguing about politics really worse that the pagentry and media nonsense going on right now?anyway, this is definitely the last post.mick

Well, my stance on the matter is who cares! I'm dead.

Jar shall you close this one or shall I?

Hi Schraf. Since you're interested in this you might be interested in the results of a little googling I did a while back.While attempting to provide cast iron evidence of the culpability of Roman Catholic penpushers in the spread of HIV I came across their claim that using condoms increased the risk of contracting the virus. Disgusted, I followed various links to try to get to the bottom of this and discovered that, in certain circumstances, they were right. The following is from a WHO report This is one of the key findings of a report found at404A little more digging uncovered the fact that nonoxynol-9 damages the epithelial lining of the vagina and its thought that this increases the chances of the virus gaining entry. There is a study somewhere (which I can't find again at the moment, but I'll keep looking) that indicated that HIV transmission rates were higher when condoms contained N-9.In no way am I saying that I find the Vatican line on the banning of condoms right, in fact I would say they were dead wrong, but I thought you might be interested in this little snippet.Yes, Admin, it's off topic, but I gave up on that a while back

Any further religious controversies can be discussed here:
http://EvC Forum: Organized Religion & personal Spirituality -->EvC Forum: Organized Religion & personal SpiritualityClosing this topic...May John Paul II rest in peace and may his successor be a good man (or woman? Not yet...)