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Author Topic:   Bible: Word of God or Not
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 241 of 301 (364019)
11-15-2006 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by iceage
11-15-2006 10:39 PM


Re: putting the cart before the horse
I totally understand! The 'cart' is faith, the 'horse' is evidence. Most of us have faith first, and then look for or create evidence of its truth. I admit to following the faith of my ancestors, I admit to riding the cart of disbelief in other religions. I further admit that, while I sometimes DO put the horse first and search for objective evidence for the Bible, I DO NOT do that for other religions and their documents. Not because of any pre-set prejudice, simply because I find enough fascination in my own faith, and enough questions to ponder, to last a life-time. At the end of the day, the only real answer anyone can give to your topic/question, aside from a personal revelation from God, is that they BELIEVE the Bible is His word. No evidence exists nor ever will that it either is, or is not. This knowledge presents no problem for me; it is the essence of the matter. The Bible is the story of sin, and redemption. If we believe in it, we will follow its commands, including 'love one another' and 'love thy enemies'. These commands presuppose belief. They presuppose our fallen nature; if we were perfect, we would have no need for commandments or clues about the path to take. They presuppose a consequence to those who do not follow the commands; else, why even bother? Above all things, God desires faithfullness. The moment the Bible is proven to be truly the word of God, it would effectively discontinue all need for faith. So yes, there is no way around 'putting the cart before the horse'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by iceage, posted 11-15-2006 10:39 PM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by ringo, posted 11-16-2006 12:17 AM anastasia has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 242 of 301 (364024)
11-16-2006 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by anastasia
11-15-2006 11:43 PM


Re: putting the cart before the horse
anastasia writes:
if we were perfect, we would have no need for commandments or clues about the path to take.
Imperfection doesn't presuppose or even imply a "fallen nature".
The moment the Bible is proven to be truly the word of God, it would effectively discontinue all need for faith.
Why must there be a "need" for faith? Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It's a fall-back position for what we don't see, not an ideal.
Another reason to believe the Bible is not the word of God is that God has never taken public credit for it.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by anastasia, posted 11-15-2006 11:43 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Phat, posted 11-16-2006 9:39 AM ringo has not replied
 Message 245 by anastasia, posted 11-16-2006 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 243 of 301 (364060)
11-16-2006 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by ringo
11-16-2006 12:17 AM


Re: putting the cart before the horse
Ringo writes:
Another reason to believe the Bible is not the word of God is that God has never taken public credit for it.
Personally, after some consideration, I think that God loves skeptics!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by ringo, posted 11-16-2006 12:17 AM ringo has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 244 of 301 (364068)
11-16-2006 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by iceage
11-15-2006 11:05 PM


Re: Government vs Individual
quote:
No the point I don't see any examples of ethic of reciprocity (out-group) demonstrated in the entire OT. So I don't understand how it can be a compelling reason.
And you won't. That's not what the Bible is. The OT deals with the events and people who shaped the nation of Israel.
In our (U.S.) school history books, they don't speak of how well individuals followed the laws of the land. We learn about the landmark events or people that shaped our country. (Wars, riots, inventions, government, etc.)
Do our history books show how the average individual treated others? No
You can read one of our (U.S.) law books and see what is allowed and what isn't, you may be able to see what the punishment is for breaking those laws; but will you find out how well the average individual is carrying out those laws. No.
You would need to study the culture of the Jews and their stories besides the Bible to see what was taught. The fact that Hillel, a great Jewish teacher, summed up the first five books as "if you don't want it done to you, don't do it to others." to a Gentile shows what was gleaned from those books for the individual. The laws were geared to help a large group of people live together as peacefully as possible.
You talk as if you understand the reality of the Bible, but you don't seem to understand the difference between national and individual behavior. You say the Bible is myth and fable, but don't seem to understand how people learn from those types of writings. You're using a different measuring stick.
quote:
The ethic of reciprocity in-group can actually be explained and modeled from a natural selection perspective. It it found throughout the natural world. Nothing compelling here.
Right, so? I've already agreed with that. But that doesn't negate the idea that someone who feels that there is a supernatural God who created all of the natural world and sees this message throughout the natural world; would see the message as evidence that the Bible is the word of God because it carries that message. That fact actually strengthens the idea.
This thread isn't about proving whether the Bible is the word of God or not. It is about sharing what motivates an individual to believe that the Bible is or is not the word of God. I'm trying to get you to see why someone who does glean that message from the Bible or the Bible teachings would consider the Bible to be the word of God. I'm not trying to get you to believe it. I am trying to get you to look at the Bible a little more realisticly though.
quote:
However, i will admit "Love your Enemies" takes it to a different level and is more interesting. Suddenly you may have a principle that maybe universal, not cultural relative and not necessarily explainable by evolutionary psychology. Something to ponder.
Exactly. Look at what was going on in the first century. The area wasn't so tribal. It was a big mixture of cultures and languages. Like early America. Now the people had to learn how to live peacefully with people of a different ethnic group. So the message expanded.
There is a small book you might find interesting. "Who Wrote the Bible?" by Richard Elliott Friedman. It deals with the Documentary Hypothesis and gives you a good idea of the world that produced the Bible.
The first five books (Torah) were probably written about 587-400bce. Torah means teaching, instruction or law. Once these instructions are put on paper they becomes stagnant never to change. The Jews understood this and that is why they have the oral law (Talmud). It constantly changes with the culture and the world to instruct Jews how to apply the laws or instructions of the OT (Tanakh).
Myths and fables are teaching tools, that's why we have to understand the teaching and not get bogged down in the details. We also have to remember they were written for a specific culture, not us.
Storytellers upgraded the tales to fit the current culture. To do that they needed to understand the "moral" of the story and then change the details so the current culture can understand. I feel that many of the parables that Jesus told are misunderstood because we aren't the culture they were intended for so we view it from our cultural standpoint and miss the original teachings within the parables.
So can you understand why someone who believes in a supernatural God would find the "Do unto others..." message a good reason to accept the Bible as the word of God? I can understand why you don't feel it is a good reason to accept the Bible as the word of God.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by iceage, posted 11-15-2006 11:05 PM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Nighttrain, posted 11-16-2006 7:17 PM purpledawn has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 245 of 301 (364082)
11-16-2006 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by ringo
11-16-2006 12:17 AM


Re: putting the cart before the horse
-Imperfection doesn't presuppose or even imply a "fallen nature".-
Imperfection may not presuppose a fallen nature. You have changed my intentions by taking the words in a slightly different context. I will try again. Following a commandment presupposes a perceived imperfection on the part of the believer. Take a person who follows a diet and exercise regime. There can be in he/she a perception or a REALIZATION of flaw. There could also be a perception or belief that to desist from the regime would lead to a disintigration of the status quo. Now, a person could also follow a command without the perception or realization of flaw or impending flaw in themselves. as in a person with a difficult boss. This person could obey for fear of consequences, or punishment. This still demonstrates a willing subordination to a greater goal, and the belief that one exists.
-Why must there be a "need" for faith? Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It's a fall-back position for what we don't see, not an ideal.-
Here I find we are in agreement! There is no necessity for faith, except when attempting to make sense of what we don't see. As I said, if God were to make HImself known concretely and for all to see, we would have no need for faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by ringo, posted 11-16-2006 12:17 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 11-16-2006 12:31 PM anastasia has replied
 Message 253 by ReverendDG, posted 11-16-2006 8:54 PM anastasia has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 246 of 301 (364089)
11-16-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by anastasia
11-16-2006 11:53 AM


Re: putting the cart before the horse
anastasia writes:
Following a commandment presupposes a perceived imperfection on the part of the believer.
There could also be a perception or belief that to desist from the regime would lead to a disintigration of the status quo.
a person could also follow a command without the perception or realization of flaw or impending flaw in themselves. as in a person with a difficult boss. This person could obey for fear of consequences, or punishment.
(Your own) three different reasons for following commandments:
  1. Self-improvement.
  2. Keeping things running smoothly.
  3. Fear of consequences.
Only the third one requires the "commandments" to be the word of God.
This still demonstrates a willing subordination to a greater goal, and the belief that one exists.
The "greater goal" could be a functioning society or just being "all that I can be" - i.e. it can be our goal, not the word of God.
-------------
By the way, you can do quotes like this:
[qs=Ringo]Something Ringo said.[/qs]
which will produce this:
Ringo writes:
Something Ringo said.
or like this:
[quote]Some wise saying.[/quote]
which will produce this:
quote:
Some wise saying.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by anastasia, posted 11-16-2006 11:53 AM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by anastasia, posted 11-16-2006 2:05 PM ringo has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 247 of 301 (364103)
11-16-2006 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
11-16-2006 12:31 PM


Re: putting the cart before the horse
Ringo writes:
(Your own) three different reasons for following commandments:
1. Self-improvement.
2. Keeping things running smoothly.
3. Fear of consequences.
Only the third one requires the "commandments" to be the word of God.
Certainly if you or I wished we may view the Bible as a work of men, and still follow its laws with the goal of improving self or society. That boils back down to the universal principle of 'love thy neighbor'. It is still an imcomplete picture, because it leaves no room for the supernatural goal. It ignores the words of Jesus when he speaks of remitting sin, it ignores the command to love God before our neighbor. These aspects of the Bible concern a higher goal than our own success or a functioning society. They speak of salvation or the consequences of NOT obeying e.g.; damnation. You may disagree all you like, but we are only discussing what the Bible says, and whether or not it can be evidenced as being from God. What the Bible says is "the wages of sin, is death". Not "if you ignore my commands, you will be a failure in life". If you want to prove whether the Bible is the word of God, which I think is unprovable, it is best to start with what it actually says, than to concoct your own version.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 11-16-2006 12:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by ringo, posted 11-16-2006 2:38 PM anastasia has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 248 of 301 (364112)
11-16-2006 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by anastasia
11-16-2006 2:05 PM


anastasia writes:
If you want to prove whether the Bible is the word of God, which I think is unprovable, it is best to start with what it actually says, than to concoct your own version.
I'm not "concocting my own version". I'm just quoting different parts than you are.
You say, "The wages of sin is death," and I say, "But the gift of God is eternal life," and I say that we receive that gift as a "reward" for feeding the hungry, etc. - not for belief in a higher power, if any.
The fact that there are differing viewpoints on what the bible "means", on what its "theme" is, suggests that it is not the word of God per se. Rather, it seems to be an attempt by men to rationalize their own thoughts by attributing them to a higher power. Different men, different thoughts, different viewpoints expressed in the Bible.
Different viewpoints expressed by people who read the Bible.
It all seems more "poly" than "mono" to me.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by anastasia, posted 11-16-2006 2:05 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by anastasia, posted 11-16-2006 4:39 PM ringo has replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 249 of 301 (364147)
11-16-2006 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by ringo
11-16-2006 2:38 PM


I am beginning to understand! There are faith AND works people, there are faith ALONE people, and you would be a works alone person e.g. you believe that you may reach salvation simply by following commandments, rules, laws, morality or what have you without regard for where they came from. I think you believe that the commandments are of men, and that a rational being would WANT to follow them because they make sense and can bring functionability to individuals or nations. You see a timeless message in the Bible, but no need to attribute that to a higher power, as it is readily understandable and demonstratable by mortals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by ringo, posted 11-16-2006 2:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by ringo, posted 11-16-2006 5:08 PM anastasia has not replied
 Message 254 by ReverendDG, posted 11-16-2006 9:03 PM anastasia has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 250 of 301 (364159)
11-16-2006 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by anastasia
11-16-2006 4:39 PM


anastasia writes:
I think you believe that the commandments are of men, and that a rational being would WANT to follow them because they make sense and can bring functionability to individuals or nations. You see a timeless message in the Bible, but no need to attribute that to a higher power, as it is readily understandable and demonstratable by mortals.
That's a pretty fair assessment.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by anastasia, posted 11-16-2006 4:39 PM anastasia has not replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 251 of 301 (364176)
11-16-2006 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by purpledawn
11-16-2006 10:08 AM


Realism
I am trying to get you to look at the Bible a little more realisticly though.
Bit rich, PD, to put the Bible and reality in the same sentence. The 'Bible', in whichever version, is an attempt to distance believers from reality. To help weak and deluded people cope with the harshness of life. The very fact that it hasn`t been preserved in an unadulterated form should give pause to followers. Thus, we have Protestants waffling on about'providential preservation', Catholics ranting about infallible Popes, and the lesser lights claiming hot lines via the Holy Spirit. Apologists engage in triple reverse somersaults in the pike position to make some coherency in contradictions, scribal errors, myths and interpolations. And what does it boil down to? The rationale driving this retreat from reality is the belief that Numero Uno will make the transition from the only life we will ever have to eternal bliss. Talk about the ultimate in selfishness, regardless of whatever salves a believer employs on the road to stardom. Believe in any variety of nonsense you choose, but please don`t include reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by purpledawn, posted 11-16-2006 10:08 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by purpledawn, posted 11-16-2006 7:55 PM Nighttrain has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 252 of 301 (364181)
11-16-2006 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Nighttrain
11-16-2006 7:17 PM


Reality Behind the Bible
quote:
Bit rich, PD, to put the Bible and reality in the same sentence. ...Believe in any variety of nonsense you choose, but please don`t include reality.
I really don't understand your point or what it has to do with the topic. Your last sentence doesn't even make sense.
There is a reality behind the Bible, just as there is a reality behind nursery rhymes and fables. There are lessons to be learned. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with belief. It's looking at the real world that produced the Bible.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Nighttrain, posted 11-16-2006 7:17 PM Nighttrain has not replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 253 of 301 (364195)
11-16-2006 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by anastasia
11-16-2006 11:53 AM


Re: putting the cart before the horse
Imperfection may not presuppose a fallen nature. You have changed my intentions by taking the words in a slightly different context. I will try again. Following a commandment presupposes a perceived imperfection on the part of the believer. Take a person who follows a diet and exercise regime. There can be in he/she a perception or a REALIZATION of flaw. There could also be a perception or belief that to desist from the regime would lead to a disintigration of the status quo. Now, a person could also follow a command without the perception or realization of flaw or impending flaw in themselves. as in a person with a difficult boss. This person could obey for fear of consequences, or punishment. This still demonstrates a willing subordination to a greater goal, and the belief that one exists.
if this has been brought up, forgive me
but my question is, were in the bible does it say god created us perfect, within the OT mainly.
the whole fall thing as far as i can tell, is just inferred from the text and puffed up from outside the bible
Here I find we are in agreement! There is no necessity for faith, except when attempting to make sense of what we don't see. As I said, if God were to make HImself known concretely and for all to see, we would have no need for faith.
yes this is true, all faith is, is a belief of something no matter what, its a testing of the persons belief

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by anastasia, posted 11-16-2006 11:53 AM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by anastasia, posted 11-16-2006 10:09 PM ReverendDG has not replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 254 of 301 (364197)
11-16-2006 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by anastasia
11-16-2006 4:39 PM


I am beginning to understand! There are faith AND works people, there are faith ALONE people, and you would be a works alone person e.g. you believe that you may reach salvation simply by following commandments, rules, laws, morality or what have you without regard for where they came from. I think you believe that the commandments are of men, and that a rational being would WANT to follow them because they make sense and can bring functionability to individuals or nations. You see a timeless message in the Bible, but no need to attribute that to a higher power, as it is readily understandable and demonstratable by mortals.
the problem is never once to anyone, that is verifible, has god said he made the commandments up or the jewish law, or the later christian law.
would you agree that laws that are said to be told to people by gods, are more effective as laws, than just having men be the authors?
i would say a law werein, the punishment is to be smited or sent to hell is pretty effective
the message in the NT isn't really all that new or original, or insightful even, the buddha taught the same ideas jesus did, not the same words, but the same basic message
lets not even talk about the OT, theres so much in there people in this time really have wrong, or mistranslate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by anastasia, posted 11-16-2006 4:39 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by anastasia, posted 11-16-2006 11:28 PM ReverendDG has not replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 255 of 301 (364228)
11-16-2006 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by ReverendDG
11-16-2006 8:54 PM


ReverendDG writes:
but my question is, were in the bible does it say god created us perfect, within the OT mainly.
the whole fall thing as far as i can tell, is just inferred from the text and puffed up from outside the bible
You are right, I can not find a place where it literally says that. But it is not a major set-back. Sometimes the inferrences can be mighty weighty of themselves. Here is one; if you did believe in God, what would make him God? He would have to be all powerful, all knowing, and entirely flawless. This means that all his works and all his creations would be likewise flawless; if they were not, there would prove to be a gap in his knowledge. His creation would be a flaw, which would make him not God. Now, the Bible DOES say that God created man in his image. If we were not therefore perfect, his image must be flawed, and his attempt at replicating himself. Again, he would not be God, or at least a god who is perfect.
There is also a thought that comes to mind; what WE think of as perfect, is not neceesarily what God thinks is perfect. In other words, it is possible for God to create anything he wants to. He could create a man who is capable of sin, but that man would still be entirely and perfectly what God desired to create. So the man would be perfect, as in, perfectly following God's design for him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by ReverendDG, posted 11-16-2006 8:54 PM ReverendDG has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by purpledawn, posted 11-17-2006 5:40 AM anastasia has replied

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