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Author Topic:   Does God = Allah
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 256 of 302 (307649)
04-29-2006 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by lfen
04-29-2006 3:02 AM


Maps either lead or mislead. 2 of the 3 mislead.
Well jar's absurd idea about map and territory then is apparently Korzybski's absurdity. Of course the map is an abstraction, a conceptualization, of course. Why bother to mention something so obvious? It points to the territory. That's why we need it since we cannot make our way through the territory to our chosen destination without it.
No I'm not saying there are three Gods. I'm saying there are three conceptions of God, maps to God if you prefer, and at least two of them are false because they are all mutually contradictory on crucial points concerning the nature of God. A bad map will only get you lost, and at least two of the maps in question are false.
For me there is only one totality though it is variously conceived, misconcieved, understood, misunderstood etc.
Which is what everybody else here has been saying as well, and it has been answered many times over by now. If the concepts contradict each other to the point that the territory doesn't look at all the same from one map to another, they are maps to different territories, or different gods -- to false or nonexistent territories, imaginary territories, but in any case they will not get you to the true territory, the true God. You are worshiping or following a false God by following the false map. If one of them is a map to the true territory or the true God, then those who follow it will find Him.
Apparently nobody here understands the function of a map.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-29-2006 03:17 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-29-2006 03:17 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by lfen, posted 04-29-2006 3:02 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by lfen, posted 04-29-2006 3:29 AM Faith has replied
 Message 270 by jar, posted 04-29-2006 8:53 AM Faith has replied
 Message 272 by jar, posted 04-29-2006 9:18 AM Faith has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 257 of 302 (307650)
04-29-2006 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
04-29-2006 2:46 AM


Re: map and territory
No, God is not a concept, but the only way we can know God is through concepts.
The ego is a concept and all it knows are concepts. But we only think we are ego and when we discover who we are we can know more directly. So I would say that the only way the ego can know God is through concepts but as we aren't ultimately limited to the ego we aren't limited to one way of knowing God.
if you really want to know God it's important to have an accurate conceptualization of Him.
Do I misunderstand your story if I state that in the course of your coming to know God your understanding of him changed, developed, progressed? I think conceptualization developes and some conceptualizations are more accurate than others. Ultimately one must go beyond conceptualization to direct knowing. But that path of contemplation has never had broad appeal but I think religious teachers could respect it rather than attempt to maintain power by insisting of control through dogma.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 04-29-2006 2:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 04-29-2006 3:26 AM lfen has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 258 of 302 (307651)
04-29-2006 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by lfen
04-29-2006 3:16 AM


Re: map and territory
Of course some conceptualizations are more accurate than others. It's pretty much what I've been saying ad nauseum. I'm talking about two conceptualizations that are so inaccurate you can't find God by them. At least two. I know this because the three are conceptualizations of three completely different kinds of God. At least two are false for that reason.
Without the "dogma" -- which is another word for the map -- you will never get to the Reality you are talking about needing to know. You'll end up in Outer Darkness wondering where God is, or more likely mistaking an illusion of your own invention for God. If you wanted to get to Shambhala but you ended up in Timbuktoo, well, I hope you will recognize your mistake. The only way to get to the point of knowing the Reality is to have a good map, a clear conceptualization of His nature. That's what maps / concepts are for.
You seem to be saying if you drop the map you'll find the Reality directly. That's the absurdity jar keeps saying too. No way. You'll be up a creek without a paddle, missing the Reality altogether.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-29-2006 03:27 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-29-2006 03:29 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by lfen, posted 04-29-2006 3:16 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by lfen, posted 04-29-2006 3:45 AM Faith has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 259 of 302 (307652)
04-29-2006 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
04-29-2006 3:13 AM


Re: Maps either lead or mislead. 2 of the 3 mislead.
and at least two of them are false because they are all mutually contradictory on crucial points concerning the nature of God.
I don't know about Judaism but I'm guessing the crucial points are how to get to heaven which both Islam and Christianity claim to have exclusive rights to.
I don't think any of the three maps are particularly accurate. They do share important points. A recognition of a singularity that is of over arching significance. People live out these maps and don't want to exchange their map for another map so they are all successful in terms of human community. Some members of each group follow these maps to the point of awakening to what Is, so each map can lead to awakening which is what interests me.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 04-29-2006 3:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 04-29-2006 3:36 AM lfen has replied
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 04-29-2006 3:50 AM lfen has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 260 of 302 (307653)
04-29-2006 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by lfen
04-29-2006 3:29 AM


Re: Maps either lead or mislead. 2 of the 3 mislead.
The points I've focused on are God's appointing Isaac as Abraham's heir, which the Bible says and Judaism claims, versus Ishmael, which Islam claims, and Jesus being God incarnate versus being merely a prophet. These are crucial, central elements of the three religions, absolutely irreconcilably mutually contradictory. The Jews are the Chosen People because of Isaac. If the heir were Ishmael they would not be the Chosen People. Judaism doesn't exist without Isaac. Jehovah is not Jehovah unless Isaac is the heir. Likewise Christianity is not Christianity unless Jesus is God. In other words these particular pieces of dogma are intrinsic to the concept of God of each religion, crucial signposts in the map to God, leading to essentially three entirely different Gods.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-29-2006 03:37 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by lfen, posted 04-29-2006 3:29 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by lfen, posted 04-29-2006 3:52 AM Faith has replied
 Message 283 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 04-29-2006 2:37 PM Faith has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 4991 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 261 of 302 (307654)
04-29-2006 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Faith
04-28-2006 7:02 PM


Re: OT stuff about Christianity
faith writes:
If you mean the above, they are Standard Accusations of Christianity and off topic for this thread.
Sorry, but that's just a little too convenient for you....
I don't think we've strayed that far from the topic. We are discussing the implications of God NOT being Allah, and your proposed existence of a "true" path to God.
>>You say that God is not Allah, that there is one "true" God, that Christianity is the "true path" to him and that all are expected to find this path, or else receive punishment.
>>I simply ask how a child born into a Muslim family in Pakistan is expected to find the "true path"?
This message has been edited by RickJB, 04-29-2006 03:44 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 04-28-2006 7:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 04-29-2006 3:54 AM RickJB has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 262 of 302 (307655)
04-29-2006 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
04-29-2006 3:26 AM


Re: map and territory
You seem to be saying if you drop the map you'll find the Reality directly.
No, but it's too complex this early in the morning to explain. For one thing you are the map and you can't drop yourself. But what I am saying is that Awakening is the dropping of the map.
The Buddha used the analogy of Buddhism as a raft to take a person across a river to get to the other side (nirvana). Once reaching the other shore it would be unneccesary to carry the raft, it has served it's purpose.
The point is not that maps are unnecessary it's just a caution to avoid confusing levels of abstraction. A human vocalization in a language is just a symbolic reference. "God" is a three letter word. The reality is nameless and to fall to quarelling about God's name is to have mistaken the "thing" I prefer "process" for the sound that refers to it.
People have preferences. I would prefer people chose Buddhism but most choose another religion. I think that these religions have positive and negative possibilities. I'm not wild about Islam but I think muslims do sincerely turn to the deepest source as they understand it. Well, I've actually spent some time attending Al Anon and I think the notion of a higher power, though not acceptable to everyone, is a way to understand this.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 04-29-2006 3:26 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 04-29-2006 4:00 AM lfen has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 263 of 302 (307656)
04-29-2006 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by lfen
04-29-2006 3:29 AM


Re: Maps either lead or mislead. 2 of the 3 mislead.
I don't think any of the three maps are particularly accurate. They do share important points. A recognition of a singularity that is of over arching significance. People live out these maps and don't want to exchange their map for another map so they are all successful in terms of human community. Some members of each group follow these maps to the point of awakening to what Is, so each map can lead to awakening which is what interests me.
What you are saying apparently without recognizing it, is that you really don't believe that concepts are maps. You think you don't need a map at all. How would you know whether any of the three maps are particularly accurate or not? Do you know God personally? Are you personally intimately familiar with the territory they map?
About the only "singularity" they have in common is that they all claim to be about the one true God. That's about as useful as saying a map of Oregon is the same as a map of Texas is the same as a map of Tibet because they're all maps of earthly terrain.
How can you awaken to what Is, which is the destination you are seeking via the map in the first place, if you abandon the map and start roaming around in the bush without it? How can a map possibly lead to awakening, if that's its destination, if its false, or if it's "not particularly accurate" (and again for heaven's sake how could you possibly KNOW that in advance?)
Maps don't become useful when you abandon them but when they are accurate and you follow them very carefully. So really you are not talking about maps at all. You think you can do without concepts altogether. Well, good luck.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by lfen, posted 04-29-2006 3:29 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by lfen, posted 04-29-2006 4:06 AM Faith has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 264 of 302 (307657)
04-29-2006 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
04-29-2006 3:36 AM


Re: Maps either lead or mislead. 2 of the 3 mislead.
In other words these particular pieces of dogma are intrinsic to the concept of God of each religion
intrinsic to the CONCEPT of God, yes. Not intrinsic to God.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 04-29-2006 3:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 04-29-2006 3:56 AM lfen has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 265 of 302 (307658)
04-29-2006 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by RickJB
04-29-2006 3:44 AM


Re: OT stuff about Christianity
>>You say that God is not Allah, that there is one "true" God, that Christianity is the "true path" to him and that all are expected to find this path, or else receive punishment.
No, I am not saying that. That is not what this thread is about. That's a thread about Christianity, the one I keep telling you to start. It's off topic here. This thread is about how Islam and Judaism and Christianity have three mutually contradictory concepts of God and how Allah is not Jehovah etc. The implications of this are not the topic of this thread even if perhaps they may have been touched on. The only implications that are on topic are that at least two of the religions are false.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-29-2006 03:55 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by RickJB, posted 04-29-2006 3:44 AM RickJB has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 266 of 302 (307659)
04-29-2006 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by lfen
04-29-2006 3:52 AM


No, not just concept, Reality as well.
intrinsic to the CONCEPT of God, yes. Not intrinsic to God.
Yes, but the concept if true will get you to God and if false will take you away from God.
ABE: I take this back. These bits of dogma ARE intrinsic to the nature God Himself, the definition of God, who He really is. Either God Himself appointed Isaac or He appointed Ishmael as Abraham's heir. It cannot be both. These are two different GODS. Either Jesus Christ is God incarnate or merely a prophet. These are not merely different "concepts" these are two different GODS.
Really, you have this odd idea that there is some great discontinuity between the concept and the reality. Nobody could function if that were so. Concepts would be useless, maps would be useless. Either the map accurately represents the territory or you will never get there. Either the map says there is a road and a lake and a mountain where they actually are or you might as well throw the map away. Either Isaac IS Abraham's heir or Ishmael IS. Either Jesus IS God or He is not. In reality. And the different "maps" say different things. Two of them MUST be wrong.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-29-2006 01:55 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by lfen, posted 04-29-2006 3:52 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 04-29-2006 2:39 PM Faith has replied
 Message 288 by lfen, posted 04-29-2006 3:24 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 267 of 302 (307660)
04-29-2006 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by lfen
04-29-2006 3:45 AM


Re: map and territory
Lfen, you really seem not to be thinking about what a map actually IS to be saying what you are saying in this post, but you are right, it is very late and I need some sleep too. So good night for now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by lfen, posted 04-29-2006 3:45 AM lfen has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 268 of 302 (307662)
04-29-2006 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
04-29-2006 3:50 AM


Re: Maps either lead or mislead. 2 of the 3 mislead.
Are you personally intimately familiar with the territory they map?
I am the territory so I would say yes I would have to be intimately familiar with it as it is me. Except that intimacy is overlayed and hidden due to my getting caught up in and mistaking myself for concepts I have about myself instead of remaining with the fundamental Isness of being.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 04-29-2006 3:50 AM Faith has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 269 of 302 (307675)
04-29-2006 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Buzsaw
04-28-2006 7:18 PM


As the old cleshe goes for an analogy, "If it doesn't look like a duck, flap it's wings like a duck and quack like a duck, it ain't a duck!
If nobody had ever seen a duck, and then one guy said "I have seen the one duck, it flaps its wings, it quacks, it looks kinda funny, it is warm blooded, has a bill, feathers, it waddles, it lays eggs, it swims in the water and has a funny bottom. It begged me for bread, then washed it down with pond water. It laughs like a dog, has black eyes and swims at about 5knots. It probably weighed a few pounds and can hold its breath a surprisingly long time.".
Later, somebody comes along and says "I am the duck that the first guy saw, but in man form, and I bring you the new information. Forget all that other stuff about the duck, its not all that important, there are only two things you need to know about the duck. He quacks and he flaps his wings."
A little later still a third person comes along and says "The duck that the other two have seen was misrepresented by those they trusted to preserve the truth about the duck. I have spent a long time with the duck. First off, by definition the duck cannot be made in man form. That's just silly. The people that wrote that he said that were lying. He did see the duck, but his scribes wanted things a little differently, adding to and taking away the truth as time went by.
So here it is, the final comprehensive guide to the duck. All the important bits are here...."
They are all talking about the same duck, they just disagree on its properties, or which properties are its defining properties or which properties were accurately recorded.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Buzsaw, posted 04-28-2006 7:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 270 of 302 (307688)
04-29-2006 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
04-29-2006 3:13 AM


Re: Maps either lead or mislead. 2 of the 3 mislead.
I'm saying there are three conceptions of God, maps to God if you prefer, and at least two of them are false because they are all mutually contradictory on crucial points concerning the nature of God. A bad map will only get you lost, and at least two of the maps in question are false.
The fact is that ALL three Maps, the Qur'an, the New Testament and the Torah, are imprecise and contain errors. That does not change the FACT that all three Maps depict the same Territory.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 04-29-2006 3:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 04-29-2006 2:01 PM jar has replied

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