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Author | Topic: Biblical atrocities... ???? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
First off I think this passage is out of context as far as applying to the heading rape.
The oldest copies of the OT is a Greek translation of the Hebrew (now lost) known as the septuagint. Below is a translation of Lev. 19:20 put out by Online Bible - Home (Highly recommended software!)
20 And if any one lie carnally with a woman, and she should be a home-servant kept for a man, and she has not been ransomed, and her freedom has not been given to her, they shall be visited with punishment; but they shall not die, because she was not set at liberty. Notice that both are to be punished, not one or the other. The KJV actually renders this as "scourge"
quote: Thank you for highlighting the ownership of humans as if they were chattel.
quote: Think funkie. Slave == no rights, no say in the issue. Yet is to be punished the same whether she consents-- emotionally, because physically there was no choice-- or not. Her consent is not even considered. It isn't an issue. Notice that the focus is on what the MAN DOES TO THE WOMAN?
quote: Not here anyway.
quote: Numbers 31 is the story of conquest and the division of the spoils, which includes women and children. If you think the women were taken as chaste and platonic helpers, you are very naive.
9 And they made a prey of the women of Madian 11 And they took all their plunder, and all their spoils, both man and beast. 15 And Moses said to them, Why have ye saved every female alive? 17 Now then slay every male in all the spoil, slay every woman, who has known the lying with man. 18 And as for all the captivity of women, who have not known the lying with man, save ye them alive. 25 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 26 Take the sum of the spoils of the captivity both of man and beast, 35 And persons of women who had not known lying with man, all the souls, thirty-two thousand. Really, funkie, this is pretty blatant.
quote: Can you really stand yourself? This is pretty twisted. First, kill all of the sons, brothers and husbands in the whole town, then justify it by saying there are other people who would "take advantage of these defenceless women and children." You mean take advantage like the Isrealites did? Very sick, Funk. And the clencher, yes Funk, kidnapping virgins to take for wives would definitely add to the gene pool? Does this make it not rape? Or should I be very afraid of you?
quote: Ok. Lets see. First:
11 and shouldest see among the spoil a woman beautiful in countenance, and shouldest desire her, and take her to thyself for a wife, Do you notice the taking part funkie? Do you notice that the woman is a 'spoil'? Do you know what rape is?
14 And it shall be if thou do not delight in her, thou shalt send her out free; and she shall not by any means be sold for money, thou shalt not treat her contemptuously, because thou hast humbled her.
Kidnap. Bang her. Decide you don't like her. Kick her out. Forget about it. Kick her out into a country and among a people she doesn't know. Guess what, funk, this is a death sentence or the start of a good job in the whorehouse.
quote: Agreed.
quote: Ask a rape victim if this would be satifactory. This works perfectly well if you don't care what the victim feels, and if you think in terms of valuing women for the babies they make and controlling them so they only make YOUR babies.
quote: Deborah, a prophetess, is singing a song about this event, and includes a matter of fact reference to the taking of captives.
quote: You so easily miss things like:
Take her for me, for she is right in my eyes. Control, power, taking--- that sort of thing.
quote: Behold my daughter a virgin, and the man’s concubine: I will bring them out, and humble ye them, and do to them that which is good in your eyes; but to this man do not this folly. 25 But the men would not consent to hearken to him; so the man laid hold of his concubine, and brought her out to them; and they knew her, and abused her all night till the morning, and let her go when the morning dawned. 26 And the woman came toward morning, and fell down at the door of the house where her husband was, until it was light. 27 And her husband rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went forth to go on his journey; and, behold, the woman his concubine had fallen down by the doors of the house, and her hands were on the threshold. 28 And he said to her, Rise, and let us go; and she answered not, for she was dead: and he took her upon his ass, and went to his place. 29 And he took his sword, and laid hold of his concubine, and divided her into twelve parts, and sent them to every coast of Israel. You have a man offering his daughter and another woman to be raped.The potential rapists didn't want the deal so the man, the Isrealite, through the concubine out anyway. They raped her until down, she crawled back and died on a doorstep, was thrown on an ass and chopped into pieces. Its just history? Why record this? What the hell place does this have in a morality tale? Well, my guess is that it is meant to make the Isrealite fear their neighbors. But half of this nightmare was committed by an Isrealite and God makes not one peep about it. How many 'neutral' stories of graphic rape could I write before you started to think I might not should hang out with your daughter? Why didn't God say something? It was acceptable behavior at the time for the people. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Funk, God shows the corruptness of man BY NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT IT ?????
quote: No kidding.
quote: This is not relevant to the topic. Perhaps this is one intent of the OT. However, God TELLS his people why they are going to be punished-- what they did in turning away from him-- and it doesn't ever involve God having a problem with slaughter and slaving except in a few cases where God gets pissed that they DIDN'T kill every man, woman and child.
quote: So your argument is that kidnapping, rape, slaughter, and slaving is OK because of the time in which they lived? Well, funk, if God's law is eternal, that makes it ok now too doesn't it? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: What is this supposed to be? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Yeah. That's the part I don't get. How exactly is this supposed to make it ok? And how does this address the OT reign of terror?
quote: I know what you mean. When you know you are going to come back, death kinda loses it kick.
quote: One day for God is like a thousand years. Maybe each day of those thousand years is also a thousand; and so on and so forth. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Yes, good point. Maybe what funk meant was that God wanted to provide for the young nubile virgins by giving them to his soldiers as presents? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Hey funk, The thrust of Chara's post, where this Psalm was introduced, seems to be that God is just because he intended to set thing right eventually with Christ. 1) I don't see how this Psalm relates. 2) It is odd to push justice so far into the future, relative to the unjustly treated persons in the OT, that it becomes insignificant. 3) I have a really bad cold and am not feeling terribly bright today. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Kinda missed that we were talking about Jesus didn't yah? Christ dies and then gets to be God. How many slaughtered pagans do you think get that deal? How many slaughtered believers, for that matter, get that deal? Lets put it in perspective Gene. If I knew for certain that I'd be walking three days later, I'd be quite happy to jump in front of a train, especially if I knew that it was to save the rest of humanity from a horrible fate. That isn't much of a sacrifice really. That is the point at issue back in post #8, as far as this comment goes. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 01-04-2003]
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Interesting that a law can be 'usurped' but still not 'repealed.' God sounds a bit schizophrenic.
quote: Right. If I am not mistaken, God was in charge from Day one. God makes the world and people and is advising from Adam right on down the line. This just doesn't make sense. You seem to imply that God just stepped in to fix the mess, when in fact he was part and parcel to making the mess. Just read the OT. God did a lot of talking in the OT.
quote: Why not? The Bill of Rights and Constitution are icons of simplicity compared to Leviticus. What is so complicated that people couldn't follow it? People may not have thought of it, but what is so difficult to follow? Nothing. Especially when the might of almighty God is enforcing the laws.
quote: There is no indication that they were intended otherwise, until a disgruntled sect decided to rewrite things. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Then, as I have asked before, why not ditch the OT? The tricky bit, as shilo points out, is that Christians very selectively apply the various laws. This practice makes a farce of the whole Bible. Of course, the farce is necessary since Christ states that not one jot or tiddle shall pass from the law. It makes a very strange marriage ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: I am very happy, suprised but happy, to find someone in agreement with me on this.
quote: Yes indeed. Christianity was a Jewish cult and a type of rebellion. Anyone doubting that can check the Talmud. It was not a smooth, happy transition as most christians portray it.
quote: Quite right. It is a NEW concept-- new to the religion/region at least.
quote: I agree. Your interpretation is possible, though I happen to think the phrase is propaganda inserted to help woo Jews to the faith. ------------------
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