What makes you unbelieve Crash ?

So are we to assume that you have been keeping meticulous records of what you say to God when you pray; exactly what you pray for, and have you determined in advance exactly what constitutes the fulfillment of the request?I mean, you can't actually know how many times your prayers have been answered compared to them not being answered unless you keep detailed records, and unless you are that specific about what constitutes a "hit".Your general impressions are likely to be heavily influenced by your wanting a certain outcome to be true.

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As for the bible, I seriously don't understand why christianity even holds to the OT. I understand that the teaching of jesus are contained in the NT, and therefore have little to do with OT. However, considering that the whole reason there are any christian creationists is the OT, it seems that the OT is fair play.

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Christians need the OT because the prophecies from the OT, which were supposedly fulfilled by Jesus as recounted in the NT, are used to show that Jesus is the true messiah.

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Lol, not exactly. But if one prayer comes true it's kind of easy to remember.

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Well, that's just it, Mike.Nobody can just "remember" events such as this in the kind of detail it requires to determine if there is a real effect happening or if you are just letting your wishful thinking bias your memory.It is also easy to remember an answered prayer because that is an "event". It is much more difficult to "remember" that a prayer wasn't answered, because nothing has happened; it's a non-event. That's called confimation bias.

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Also, the last prayers in which I have asked for things are easy to remember.

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The only way to be sure is to keep detailed and consistent records like the examples I gave.Personal biases are very, very pervasive and influence everyday thinking enormously.That's the whole point with scientific methodology; it strips away what you want or suspect is true and leaves you with what is true about phenomena.

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It is not often I would ask for something, however a recent example was a woman who asked for believers to pray for her family. Her son was being bullied because he was a believer and so we prayed, and indeed we believed - I myself, with great belief and fervor, and those bullies became Christians the next day. That's one prayer I can remember.

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Wait. Did you pray for the bullies to become Christians, or did you just pray for the bullying to stop?Also, did those bullies also get spoken to by anybody, or threatened with suspension from school, or punished by their parents, or did the kid's older brother or friend go and rough them up?

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Though what I remember mostly is the belief I had at the time. So get back Schrafinator -- get back to the truth. Stop seeking Godless journeys -- get back. - and get off that horse!

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OK, but first you have to show that your prayers are really being answered consistently at a rate better than chance would predict, and you'd better get going on your experimental protocol; there's HUGE holes in it!

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Christ said believe, he did not say gather evidence. So I feel you cannot understand what I preach. I can only recommend that you search what you have previously overlooked as chance. If chance can explain my prayers - fine, I have no problem with that!! WHY? - Is that what you think?

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Think not that I seek evidence or to convince you with it. I will accept it if you only see it as chance, think not that that will cause me unbelief. Can you see my point yet?

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Mike, you claim that your prayers have been answered by God.I do not claim that this isn't what is happening.I am saying that without the record keeping and methodology and correction for bias I have been describing, neither of us has any idea at all if what you describe as divine intervention performes any better than coincidence.We don't know.I certainly do understand that you have faith and simply believe that your prayers are being answered, but I also have difficulty understanding how you can have different rules about what you will believe about actual events.It seems to me that you are picking and choosing the things that God has done according to your own wishes of what reality should be like, rather than how it actually is.Personally, I am much more interested in knowing, as much as possible, what we can know, even if it is not comforting, and even if that knowledge is never complete.For me, there exists too much fear of knowledge and inquiry and inspection inside the blind belief that you describe.I don't mean for this to sound harsh, though these are my personal ideas.

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A theistic outlook is not an arrogant dismissal. If anything, we don't dismiss. It is you who dismiss possibilities, because of your limited newbie brain.

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Holding to one particular faith to the exclusion of all others is the dismissal of many, many possibilities, mike.Science doesn't dismiss any religious notions at all, since it ignores them all.

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Theists have concepts yet God is not their idea. Certainly nowaday Theists have not "made" God up, and you cannot prove their predecessors did.

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Mike, entirely new religions have formed in the last century.Your claim that belief in God has somehow "always" existed, and therefore God must exist is a lot like the idea that men are more important and better than women has somehow "always" existed, therefore it must be true that men are more important and better than women.People have to be taught these things.

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God also cannot be compared logically relevant to "pink elephants" or any other realities you stick together.

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It is precisely the case that you have exactly the same amount of evidence for your God that every other religion has for their diety.The arrogance comes in not just because believers have belief.The arrogance is the lack of any doubt whatsoever that you have in your belief, even though you have no evidence of the sort that rational people use to determine fact from fiction. You reject the same kind of stories from people who believe in a different god, or many gods that you use as proof of your god to yourself.

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I find it hard to believe you have chosen to side with this newbie.

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Eh, I do think what he said was a bit over-general and kinda harsh, but I do pretty much agree with him.It isn't really a taking of sides, in my view; just piggy backing on his post.

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It seems to me that you say one thing Schraff, but believe another. You say you think there is a possibility of God. You seem to always be arguing against that possibility.

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"Possible" doesn't mean "probable", mike.All you wanted to know when you asked if I thought that it was possible that god existed was a yes or no answer.I should clarify that I do not argue against the possibility of god, but I DO argue against the idea that anyone has any lock on the truth, regardless of how strongly they feel that they do. I also reject certain notions of god that contradict what we know of nature.Since I know how fallible and prone to bias and wishful thinking we humans are, and how religious feelings and experiences can be induced chemically and with electrical stimulation of the brain, I have a great deal of skepticism that any supernatural entities or phenomena exists. There just isn't any evidence.I also think that there is no reason to think that we would be able to comprehend god or gods in any way if they exist.We just don't have any way of knowing, so I can't make a determination. That's not the same as Atheism, but in practice, I suppose I might as well be one.

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And you know that I myself do not see it as a bad thing necessarily, if we have different names for the one true God. Now you say I have arrogance because of my lack of doubt?

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I thought it was okay for me to believe in what I want?

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Lack of any doubt in one's beliefs, especially when the beliefs are rather arbitrary (such as faith-baased beliefs) can be taken as arrogance.Belief, in and of itself isn't arrogant.I don't think you behave arrogantly, either; quite the opposite most of the time, actually.

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Men are not more important to women - and I would never argue such things. I don't claim that because we have always believed - he exists. I claim he exists.

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Analogy, mike; it was an analogy.You actually said, if I recall correctly, that people today didn't make up god, and that nobody can prove that humans didn't always belive in god. Didn't you then imply that this implied that god exists?

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Can be, but I strongly assert that it isn't. For one thing, there is no believer alive today that I know of without doubt.

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Hmm, since I have been interacting with Creationists on this board over the last 3 years or so, I have come across quite a few believers who have never shown any sign that they had any doubts at all.I've been at the receiving end of many insults, condescention, and venom delivered by "undoubting" Christians.

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I think it's safe to say most believers do have doubts and questions including myself; but that has nothing to do with arrogance. What you may view as arrogance could in fact just be strength of faith. If someone were to believe in God so strongly it wouldn't be arrogance anymore than you saying beyond doubt that your best friend exists.

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Still, there is lots and lots of evidence, available to any disinterested bystsnder who wished to verify it, that my best friend exists. There could be so much confirmation of the fact of my best friend's existence that it would be utterly unreasonable to deny his/her existence.None of that is true of the person with faith in God. It is just as likely to the disinterested bystander that the believer is making God up out of their imagination, because there is absolutely no way to independently verify the believer's claims.So far, there is no evidence that appeals or prayers to God/gods have an effect different from that which chance would predict.When faith trumps reason and doubt, humans are the most vulnerable to personal biases and mistakes of logic.This inevitably leads to arrogant thinking, such as, "I KNOW in my heart that my religion is the One True Religion, because I feel God so strongly."To a disinterested outside observer, that is a baseles assertion, founded only upon whim and emotion. There's no way a disinterested observer can tell, remember, that God even exists, let alone determine if your religion is the "right" one.

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Yet you do NEVER argue for God.

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Nor do I argue against God.I argue against the idea that anyone KNOWS anything about God.I also argue against a literal interpretation of Genesis and other parts of the Bible.

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Even you have argued with such things as design problems in humans etc.

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When I bring up the flaws in human design, I am not arguing against God.I am arguing against the lousy Creationist/Intelligent Design FACTUAL arguments.The design of the human body is clearly not evidence of an Intelligent Designer/Creator, but neither is it evidence against the existence of God. It is against the IDists' particular version of God.God could exist, just not in any way even remotely like you, or the IDiests, think.

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I have never known you to argue FOR the possibility of God.

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God could exist.There, are you happy?As an Agnostic, that's as far as I can logically go.Remember, I argue against claims that there is evidence that God is actively involved in the day to day workings of every natural occurence in the Universe.The philosophical arguments for and against God are a different matter, and are not bound by physical evidence at all.

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The evidence for God is so overwhelming it is laughable that you can say there is no evidence for God.

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This depends upon one's definition of "evidence", doesn't it?What I mean by evidence is, specific predictions, that if found to be true, would support God's existence, AND, if found false, would falsify God's existence.What do you mean by "evidence"?

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Only in this present day - world of know-it-alls, could such a claim be made. Go ahead Schraff, tout that there is no evidence for God - it won't effect his existence

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Excuse me, mike?I'm an AGNOSTIC, remember?That means I don't know if God exists or not.How on earth do you get that I'm a "know it all" from that?YOU are the one who thinks you have it all figured out, aren't you? You are completely sure, without doubt, that God exists, and nothing will ever shake you from that faith, correct?That sounds pretty "know-it-all" to me, comparatively.

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And doubt is useless to me.

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Well, I have a nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you, cheap!...or, do you doubt me?

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Doubt will only help the cause of unbelief, and hinder my progress.

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People with doubt aren't the ones who become suicide bombers.

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I have no reason to doubt, but you do.

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I have no reason to follow a blind faith, but you do.

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You have reason to doubt your belief that there is no God,

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No, you are misstating my position.I do not believe that there is no God.I do not know if god exists or not, or even that we could comprehend God at all if God does exist.

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and you have to come back to the truth because I know already that you know it. So you have no choice - it is your unavoidable destiny.

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Now you just sound like the Emperor in "Star Wars-The Return of the Jedi".The "truth" is, mike, that I don't know if God exists or not.

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Evolution can never be your replacement god, or your "new found truth". It is just a theory.

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No, my replacement God is the Theory of a Heliocentric Solar System.Seriously, what on Earth makes you think that Evolutionary theory has anything to do with my philosophical world view? It IS "just" a scientific theory that explains the diversity of life on Earth.It has nothing at all to do with whether or not God exists.It does contradict quite a few religious myths about the origins of creatures, it's true.Why do you think God has to be limited to what a small group of poor, nomadic humans thought he did and how he did it?Why do you think you "know?"

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For one thing, there is no believer alive today that I know of without doubt. I think it's safe to say most believers do have doubts and questions including myself; but that has nothing to do with arrogance. What you may view as arrogance could in fact just be strength of faith. If someone were to believe in God so strongly it wouldn't be arrogance anymore than you saying beyond doubt that your best friend exists.

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Well, here's at least one arrogant, doubt-free believer that is "alive today":http://EvC Forum: Evolution=Bad Science Fiction (lack of transitionals) -->EvC Forum: Evolution=Bad Science Fiction (lack of transitionals)

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So they reach a conclusion based upon feeling rather than logic, therefore they are arrogant?

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It is arrogant to reach a conclusion based upon emotion that rejects all other possibilities that have the same basis.It's not arrogant to decide out of emotion.It's arrogant to say, "I feel that my belief is correct, and THEREFORE everyone who doesn't believe as I do is wrong.It is the inability or unwillingness to consider alternatives to what they have decided is correct, once and for all, that is problematic for me. I know how limited humans' perceptions are and how prone to wishful thinking we are. We have a strong tendency to believe and seek out information/feel feelings that make us feel comforted and reassured rather than what may be true. (kind of like holocaust deniers or mothers who don't want to know that their children are being molested by their step-fathers, so they rationalize all the signs they see)I find it amazing that anyone thinks they know anything at all about the supernatural based upon our extremely malleable feelings.

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By the way, I read that post from 'laserman' or whoever. The way that's set up I'm sure he's got some serious subconscious doubt about his faith, so he's rallying behind it for everything he's got. I don't know if you ever were into organized religion, but it's really hard to have it torn down in front of you. That's why people come on here to try and defend it; not just for others but for their own peace of spirit.

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I am sure it must be very difficult.I was raised a Catholic, went to 12 years of catechism, but never was really a deep believer. I began the process of becoming an Agnostic in my early twenties after college, during which I stopped going to church and realized that nothing bad happened.So, I guess I can't really relate much to having a spiritual crisis because my faith was always pretty weak, even as a really young child.It's just sad that someone feels that they must tie their entire faith on the idea that a certain interpretation of their holy book must be literally true.That seems more like worshipping the Bible than God.

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I didn't call you a know it all, I said in a world of know it alls.

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Only - I didn't call you a know it all in the first place, so now you call me it ans, and ,and....

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Sorry, mike, but I'm not inclined to buy your explanation.I think you worded your previous statement so you would have an out.This is how I read what you mean: "I didn't call YOU a know it all...I just implied that people who don't hold the same beliefs as I do (like you) are know it alls."

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I will admitt that I am completely sure that God exists. But you have to understand - I really am nutty. Evidence for me would be our own existence, yet it is more of a "belief", it's not like I am forcing this topic onto you or science Schraf.

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Of course you are not forcing anything, but this is a debate board, and I'm responding to your statements.

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(aharrgh hargggh...cries and moans - Schraffy hates me, tears role down cheeks. )

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I could never hate you, silly.

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Fair enough, atleast you haven't dismissed the truth altogether.

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That's the arrogance, right there.You claim to know what The Truth is, based upon only your own faith.

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You do realize though, that I have never been a suicide bomber.

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I never said you were.I said that people WITH doubt DON'T become suicide bombers.I was arguing that not having any doubt in one's religious teaching or whatever makes justifying killing lots of people in the name of one's deity much easier.The siicide bombers had no doubt whatsoever that God wanted them to fly jumbo jets into the WTC and they would go directly to heaven.Not having any doubt about one's religious correctness is very dangerous.

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I have belief and no doubt in God, yet surely that doesn't logically make me a suicide bomber.

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No, but those men had belief and no doubt in God, and no doubt that they would go directly to heaven if they killed all of those people.All of those thousands of people's lives might have been saved if those men would have had a little doubt about what they believed that god wanted them to do.

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So you agree I have good reason to believe then? And my prayers are indeed answered - thanks.

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No, I didn't say you had a good reason to believe. I am sure you have reasons, but I have no idea if they are good ones or not.Oh, and haven't we already had the discussion about how you know if your prayers are being answered at a rate any different from what chance would predict?

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Because so many people come up with such strange things. People in this forum have given me "evolutions answers" to things like religious experiences etc. Saying that the "God" part of the brain is because of evolution. People are snake fascinated with evolution. They ask it questions like it is a god, and make there own answers. If only they would stick to the science of it and not the philosophy, or "why".

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But mike, there IS evidence that shows that religious experiences can be induced by stimulating certain parts of the brain. That just a fact. Do you expect scientists to just ignore that? If these facts bother you, maybe you might want to examine why.I don't know anyone who asks questions of any science like it was a god. Can you give an example?

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Many here, including you, have said how we are just evolved and are another animal, and that seems to imply we are not made in the image of God.

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Maybe we are made not in the physical image of God, but in the spiritual image of God.I mean, do you think that God looks like a human, complete with a sharp ridge on the inside of His skull and a single opening for air and food that makes Him prone to choking?

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Basically, your theory is an obsession to people, they worship the creature because of it, and not the Creator.

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WTF are you talking about?The theory is an explanation of the facts we observe in nature.Do you think that the theory of a Heliocentric Solar Syastem is an "obsession to the Sun", with scientists "worshipping the Sun because of it, and not the Creator"?

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Give God the glory.

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So, are you dictating that all scientists must bow down to your God and give Him "the glory"?

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Also, other things. Apparently "samaritan acts" or giving to charity is now explained as "looking after the genes of humans for our selfish continuation".
Such a teaching makes out that an act of unselfishness is infact selfishness.

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It is selfish only from our genes' viewpoint.

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Many other things make God's words of none-affect. And seek to destroy the truth of the bible.

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...and you are arrognat to think you know better than others what the "Truth" of the bible is.I already asked this question, but it wasn't answered, so here it is again, because it is still relevant: "Why do you think God has to be limited to what a small group of poor, nomadic humans thought he did and how he did it?"

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And look here, there is even a "bible forum" so you can attack my so called "religion". I could go on, but basically you people have got my dander up with your obsessionf for the evolution mind.

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Do you think that we also have and "obsession" for the idea that the Sun is the center of our solar system?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-01-2004]

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Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety--Karla McLaren

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I think that is a bad example because it seems to imply that there was a Religious Motive for what the 9-11 folk did.

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Often, the people that you are speaking of, and Terrorists in general, are working from a basis other than religion.True, they have a strongly held belief that they are right and that their actions are right, but it can be any strongly held belief.

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Al Qaida is a religious organization, actively working against secularism. One thing that each of the bombers had in common was a history of very devout religious fanatacism.Are you actually suggesting that the suicide bombers didn't likely believe that they were going to be rewarded in the afterlife for this specific deed?I am not saying that political motivations are not also mixed up in there, but I also think that the promise of great riches in heaven, and the utter lack of self-doubt or doubt in what they have been taught, makes getting people to do it much easier.

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If there was a miracle and suddenly, at dawn tomorrow, every Jew in Israel awoke to find that they had converted to Islam, the suicide bombing in Palestine would still go on.

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Probably, because the promises of riches in heaven for those who die in a jihad are great.The way the suicide bombings would be reduced is if Every Moslem and every Jew were to wake up tomorrow as rational Atheists.

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The mass murders in Cambodia, Russia, Nigeria, Mosambique, Ethiopia and many, many other instances are not because of religion.

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I don't know about all of these conflicts, but what about this?:http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/362/12591_Fatwa.html"Islamic philosopher Yusuf Kardavi has published Fatwa (also spelled as Fatawah or Fatawa, a set of rulings and decisions of Islamic doctrine; affirmed under a recognized authority such as True Mufti), in which he calls Chechen insurgents to continue military actions against Russian troops and promises Heaven in return."

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But suicide bombings or other horrific acts can and are committed by people without strongly held beliefs. There are those that kill for fun, because someone got in their face or for money.

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I never said that ALL killings, or even MOST killings or bombings are committed by people with strong beliefs.I was talking specifically about suicide bombers, particularly the ones from 9/11, who's devout religious beliefs most certainly strongly influenced their descisions all along the way.The only secular suicide bombers that I can think of were the kamikaze of Japan in WWII. Do you have any examples of current suicide bombers who are not strongly motivated by their religious faith?

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Simplistically relating the strength of ones religious beliefs to anything as horrific as terrorism is simply unsupportable.

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Are you saying that a person who has absolute, unshakable faiththat he will go directly to heaven if he kills a bunch of people in a fatwah is not more likely to do it than someone who isn't totally sure?

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Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety--Karla McLaren

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I agree that some belief in an afterlife might add to someone's ability to carry tsuch an act through, but I also believe there are many, many examples of people being willing and even eager to commit murder or other horrible acts for any strongly held belief.

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That's why I said, in my last post, that I did not think that many, or even most killings were done in the name of religion. Many are done in the name of patriotism, or loyalty to the state or crown or clan.However, I also said that it wasn't just some "belief in an afterlife" that strongly encouraged people, but an absolute belief that they will go directly to heaven if they persorm the specific task of sacrificing themsseslves to a fatwa while killing lots of their perceived enemy.If every Israeli and every Palistinian woke up as Atheists tomorrow morning, somehow I don't think that "sacred, holy temple"-thing would cause conflict in quite the same way it does now.It is specifically the lack of doubt in one's beliefs, be they religious or otherwise, that is dangerous, and that is my point.

Sorry, mike, I did a big reply a couple of days ago that got lost as I tried to post because I didn't realize my dial up kad booted me off the line. I'll attempt another reply now.

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I am firm in my beliefs, - yes. But I don't understand why that should make me arrogant. I don't have a lock on the truth - I just am persuaded that I know it and that you can also know it.

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If it is true that you are merely persuaded of your beliefs, I have no problem with that. We are all persuaded of our beliefs. That's what it means to have a belief.However, If you believe you are right, AND you think everyone else is wrong AND, most importantly, there is nothing that could possibly persuade you otherwise, then that is arrogant.This is not personal, and it doesn't have to be a faith-type belief, either that is held arrogantly.Remember, I am talking about lack of doubt being arrogant, not religious belief.

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And all I done is take the contra-positive from that. People who do become suicide bombers are without doubt

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But that doesn't logically mean that all believers without doubt will become suicide bombers.

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Exactly.That's why I said what I did about suicide bombers when you said that doubt was of no use to you.Doubt is very good for preventing some extreme behaviors.

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My faith and belief is from Christ - I believe in him and his teachings above all things, therefore I would never seek to take a life. So - maybe I am not your enemy, maybe those who don't believe in Christ but in other things are your enemy. Yet here you are, making me your enemy yet I do not endanger you.

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There are plenty of undoubting believers in Christ who endanger me, and who have endangered and killed many over the centuries.

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And here we have a biblical section for people to attack my God - like our faith is the enemy, it's almost as if we get the blame for those events rather than the necessary partakers of different beliefs.

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I am not attacking your God.I am attacking lack of doubt.

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- Did those bombers believe in Christ?

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As a great prophet of God, yes, they did believe in Christ and many of his teachings.Do the members of the Christian group who distributed a "hit list" of abortion providers believe in Christ, when the "nurenburg" website mentioned below used to be found at "christaingallery.com"?Page not found – National Organization for Women

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I don't have religion or correctness. I am a believer who has a faith and cannot boast. Boasting is without effect. No-one can now boast. Read Romans. I am wrong about many things - even about some biblical things, sometimes I am indeed wrong, and have not interpreted correctly. I am fallible.

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Good. That means that you at least have some doubt, which is not what you indicated before.

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I said your theory is an obsession to people - not scientists. Many here try to have a solely scientific outlook, concerning the ToE. Others have an evolution philosophy, Unseul is a good example of someone who asks evolution for an answer to almost everything.

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So what?Why do you care if people have a different, non-supernatural philosophy?You mistake a lively curiosity and a desire to figure out the mysteries of nature as some kind of threat or rejection to your faith or God.

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"Man believes in God - let's see what evolution has to say about it......Evolution says it is necessary - so that we conquer our death-anxiety,..."

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My answer would be - "Stick to the how and I'll stick to the why."

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Again, why do you care if someone's intellectual curiosity leads them to investigate this issue scientifically?Surely your faith isn't dependent upon us not being allowed to understand certain phenomena, is it?

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I am saying all those who worship the creature are predicted in the bible, and avoiding the truth won't save you from this fact. People have warped their worldviews so that evolution gives them an answer to everything.

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See, this is the kind of statement that makes me think of arrogance.What if someone said the following to you:"People have warped their worldviews so that JESUS gives them an answer to everything."Wouldn't that strike you as kind of insulting and arrogant?

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because we hold true to our belief in God and the things that are said in the bible - you attack us instead. And for what? - Because we come to a different conclusion about evidences - big deal.

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I am attacking LACK OF DOUBT, not your belief.