What makes you unbelieve Crash ?

Hey Mike,Your original claim, that sorta leads onto this one nicely. Is that we cannot just come up with the idea of God, its not as though its sometihng that is made from parts that already exists such as these wonderful pink elephants.However i disagree, your arguement is very similar to one Descartes used in his meditations, that we can know god to be real because we start off with an intrinsic idea of him, that cannot be put there by anything because nothing compares. However this is obviously false, most people i suspect see god as a large father figure of all power. Its not difficult for me to think of a face that i consider to be extremely wise and benevolent, then make it appear more wise and benevelont in my mind, I have an idea of this, and just exaggerate on it. Once again this can easily be done with omniscience, and omnipotence, if i can see a physical thing i can think of all sortsa tihngs that i know about that could happen to it, and just have to attribute the ability to making any of these things happen to my idea of a supreme power.I dont feel that an idea of god is any more than me thinking of all the best things that i can think of, exaggrate them as much as possible, and place them all into one object.So i feel that an idea of god is based on a reality, albeit then exaggerated.Unseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

OK, stop.There is a hell of lot of trouble in societies, and a lot of facts in the past that religions have been the cause of many massacres, genocides, wars etc etc. So todays societies (so much for i before e cept after c...?) cannot be totally blamed due to lack of faith. Im reasonanly sure that us athiests are in the minority overall by a long way. Faith has lead to a lot of trouble. Though i admit, mans greed has probably led to more.And before you dismiss my idea so quickly, surely you are making several suppositions by claiming that humans are too stupid to have come up with god and christ. Many different religions all have their own gods, some of these religions have all powerful gods, now surely if they dont all exists someone must have thought them up. Personally i dont like that arguement as i feel its used to much, and doesnt explain a lot, but it still seems to fit. Perhaps a better way of looking at it would be to look at some of the amazing science fiction (and hell most of science) that humans have come up with, some of that stuff is pretty out of this world, and easily into the supernatural. I personally have very few doubts that someone called Jesus, lived, claimed many things, was crucified etc etc, but not necessarily was gods son.People have always been selfish, i agree, its in our nature, it is our nature. However its also in our nature that our family survives, continuation of genes etc. There are many countries that have laws in place that protect and place a much similar onus as those in the bible. I'll admit i dont believe there is a country where it is law to Love thy neighbour, but it would be a tricky one to enforce would it not. Its still a wonderful principal which should be attempted to be met. But yes i firmly believe that humans can come up with these principles by themselves. I have no faith, and yet i wish my neighbours no harm, i try to get by as inoffensively as possible towards others. And tho i may covet another mans wife (Brad Pitt's etc etc), i certainly would not act on such impulses. Im not obeying any scriptures to come to these feelings, i am doing what i feel is right, and also obeying the law.What you must remember is although many of these principles are hard to live by they form something greater, by you agreeing not to hurt others, there are a hell of a lot more people out there agreeing not to hurt you. There are almost always selfish aspects to every facet of human behaviour.

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

OK, I agree faith is no bad thing, i truly envy those who believe fully. However peoples belief in their gods has caused trouble, strangely enough most the time they are doing the opposite of whatever scriptures they are following.As i said other religions have come up with all powerful deities and although u may believe they are wrong, as well they may be, there is no denying they believe their deity to be every bit as all powerful as yours.As for what we shall do for our desires of the flesh, we will not pursue our endevours after Mrs Aniston, we will obey laws, personal morals, and in your case what your religion tells you.As i said, we do help each other, very much so. And this is still well within the confines of nature, i want my genes to continue, my genes are within me, and also within my family. However we also want to protect our tribe, as they are the ones that give us stability to extend our own lives, and so now we feel close to our friends, and anyone who happens to belong in a club the same as us etc, our feelings of fraternity spread far, but all i believe originating from self interest.Personally i am a great believer in human intelligence, i do believe that we can, and have already, perform acts of true altruism. Though many argue that we still havent escaped it totally because we now have an ego to play with, and tho we dont benefit at all physically, we can get a little buzz from being generous, this could easily have arised to try and encourage altruism whilst we were in a position where only those close enough to be family were our entire tribe. But im still optimistic that there are times when even that is not sought.You think that i unwittingly follow do unto others? i think its a damn fine idea, and so i use it. I have nothing against the morals of most religions they tend to be of the highest order, but just because i try to follow them doesn't mean that i am any more religous than the next athiest.As i have said, and read (Richard Dawkins, Desmond Morris are particularly good), i believe that humans are still very much effected by their nature, but are reaching the stage where we are breaking through that. Our intelligence has certainly allowed us to withstand much that would send any other creature under similar circumstances quite mad.Yes scriptures have been written that are basically impossible for most humans to live by, because basically we still have our natural urges, but we can think of these wonderful possibilities and how nice it would be if everyone was like this. I dont need a God to make me think of these things, i can appreciate the possible benefits whatever. And so i dont see how God can be shown to exist purely because of these rules (see that nifty turn to get us right back on topic )

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

One thing just to pick up on mike, the usual i dont see evolution as a god, i see it as a process.Obviously we see things differently, i find scientific explainations wherever i look. Im not sure but you seemed to suggest that you dont look after your friends and family (which im sure is not true) perhaps you meant that you dont specifically look after them over others. Basically this is still very similar to what i believe, we are indeed all still humans, and so will look out for each other, to help are own continuation and possibly that buzz. The buzz incidently i believe is probably just some happy chemicals (cerotonin is the well known one, mmmm chocalate) being released to give me a reward for doing something that previously would have been beneficial for the continuation of my genes. Im very much with Richard Dawkins on the fact that we are just large walking machines designed specifically to help continue our genes. Nothing special, just the next step in the process.I dont ask evolution to help me, i try not to ask anyone to help me as i dont like being a hindrance. But if i did need help i would first goto my friends, not to some supernatural being that i have never met and dont know. Im not saying there arent times when i feel really down or worried (funnily enough it was at the worst of these times that i became an athiest) but i dont feel the need to ask for some supernatural being to help, its my life, my responsibility, and in the end, things nearly always seem worse than they are. I find laughter is the best solution to most things.Blessed are those who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused. (Now theres a line that should have been in scriptures.)Unseul

OK, i dont help others out because i feel its the right thing to do as far as continuing my genes is concerned. i do it cos i feel its right. However i feel that there are several explainations that can be giving for this behaviour. I dont feel i have to please or serve evolution at all. I dont like being a hindrance to mates, i mean i know damn well theyve got their own problems so could probably do without listening to me whine (this is me being a hindrance to mates, they may not mind but still). All this is because basically i do believe i am just an animal, i dont believe i have a soul/spirit, i am merely an animal, albeit one with more intelligence than most. So i suppose merely our different outlooks on this part will keep us from agreeing on these topics. Im willing to accept it like this.I dont feel i am a slave to evolution in any way. But i do feel that it can explain a lot of how i act. Admittedly when i act, i still feel its my choice, but then i realise that its origanal basis can usually be explained. This doesnt so much make me a slave to evolution, or such, but moresomething with a possible predisposition to some things (some people are predisposed to certain illnesses etc etc but dont always get them). As i said before its just the difference on our outlooks as to how important we consider humans.I will read the NT, or at least will attempt to. Im currently in the middle of reading a fair few books, but will keep the bible going whilst i read these. Im afraid i wont take it to be gospel, however i will try and treat it with as open a mind as i treat most things (any more and my brains will fall out).As far as being a wiz in the old bullsh*t department, i just got a grade back for 9 writeups forming a fieldcourse writeup. It totalled more than 11000 words. I got a b-. I did the whole thing the night before (and early following morning) handin. I also know my bull Unseul

Heh, noticed you taking on my whole selfish genes thing there Mike. Although if u read i have great optimism for humanities, so although i believe a lot of things we do had selfish beginnings, ive also said that humans do have the capacity for altruism. Im not explaining everything through selfishness, just saying that in terms of genes, selfishness is just one of those theories that seems to work everytime in the animal kingdom (humans being the xception, our ability to think has caused some problems, plus its not as if there is any particular selective pressure on us any more).Please accept that i have great belief in our ability to break our selfish tendancies. I just find it amusing (yes amusing is the right word, i give myself a little chortle if i spot myself doing it) how selfish tendancies can explain things that at first glance seem perfectly innocent (btw i do this for any behaviour type jobby thing, for instance most made people (and most twitchy people) goto a rythym of 72 beats a minute (roughly) this is thought to be, and has good evidence, very close to the continuos rythym u hear in the womb, its extremely comforting).DC85, the topic has sorta strayed, but is roughly on track. I think on the whole we have once again come to the conclusion that athiest disbleive due to no logical evidence. Believers believe because surely its obvious he exists, and prayers do seem to be answered. And agnostics dont really care that much either way, just look for good science/explainations. Anyone wanna add anything important to that?Unseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

Erm yeah. I believe we have choice in just about every situation, admittedly that choice may be severely limited in many ways. But on religous bases, especially in an open society, then yeah theres a choice. I know i made a choice to be an athiest, it wasnt just thrust upon me.Unseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

OK, sure. This is gonna get a little personal for me in places, so i may just smudge over details if u dont mind .Right when i was 17 i was going through a lot of stress from just about every angle in my life. This got me extremely depressed, so i was becoming a very secular, pessimistic, sarcarstic etc etc person. I decided one particular night, when i did truly have suicidal tendancies that i needed to obviously get something sorted in my head. So basically that night i changed a lot. That was when i lost any belief i had, i thought about things long and hard, and decided that there was no god no afterlife etc etc. Now dont get me wrong i didnt start thinking i hate god for putting me in this position etc, i just decided that there was no god for a multitude of reasons. And since then i have learnt more and more things that explain to me many little things that just make this belief stronger for me. I afraid i cannot recall precisely what i was feeling etc etc. But my beliefs in god were not the only things to change. I also decided that i wanted to be more laidback chilled out etc, and start enjoying life. Perhaps some people may call me a little crazy, when i hear people arguing, or if they are arguing (i mean shouting etc) at me, i will just start laughin, because i realise now how pointless it all is most the time. You can change your beliefs and outlooks, beliefs i reckon change pretty much overnight, and then start solidifying, outlooks u have to work on, but i cant say ive looked back since. You can change the person you are, if u want to, and if you want to be more compassionate etc etc, u just have to work at it.Damn i've started sounding all preachy Sorry if thats not quite what u wanted but its about as good as i can give, please ask more questions on the specifics and in the most part ill be glad to answer them.Unseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

I spose i so ask evolution a lot of questions. But this is because i am doing a Zoology degree, hoping to really concentrate on behaviour. So i find that there can be several answers, and selfish genes seem to be able to answer a lot of questions. If i was watching chemical reactions i would look to the basics of chemical reactions, redox etc etc. I'd goto Newtons theorys for physical interactions. I just find evolution can hold a lot of explainations, that always seem to fit extremely well.However i dont like being told i dont have a scientific outlook on ToE. If you test a theory, and find that the numbers fit its still following scientific theory. I suppose i take it further in terms of examples than most, but this is because as i have said i like behaviour a lot, whereas most just stick to the physical side of things. This isnt taking evolution as a philosophy i put this forward more a considering the other side of evolution, afterall many basic behaviours are genetically conferred. But we cant really study these as well with fossils, just surmise as to why they would occur. Perhaps its not as solid science, but the fact that you can test any animal behaviour (albeit it may take many years) and put it upto the theory to explain, does give it falsifiability, and so makes it scientific theory phew.Unseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

I could do with a bit more proof about the leprechauns. I spose for me thats what its down to, proof. But i still choose whether or not it is sufficient proof. I mean if i was to look up all info pos on leprechauns etc etc then i maybe closer to believing.I think i understand what you are getting at. And its extremely philosophical. OK, just theorising here, i believe in a god, and yet felt there were a few things that didnt quite fit. I read some ancient manuscripts from some other religions tht preaches a very close thing, but not quite, these few things seem to be cover much better, then i believe that i would choose to change my beliefs at that point. I suppose that is what i have really done with my athiesm, i have assessed what knowledge i have, and made a decision based on that knowledge.I think you are trying to say that most the time you just believe things because thats what you believe. However i think that if you sit down, and actually go through what you know about a subject, then your beliefs can change.Fraid its all a bit hardcore for 1.30am tho Unseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

Mike, your really going to town with the whole evolution philosophy thing now. Evolution is random mutation with natural selection ( i know theres more niggly points but its close enough for now). Physical things are not the only thing that adapt, innate behaviours do as well. Now evolution can explain several behaviour, such as cats chasing objects/mice, even with no previous experience of this (such as watching their mother).My opinion on how god arose is not really too much to do with evolution, accept for the fact that we look for a leader figure, then psychology can quite easily come in to give us a replacement.As i have said evolution can explain many behaviours (i know some behaviours are also learnt through life) as well as physical traits. I dont try and use evolution to answer everything, but it generally does a damn good job of the living world (animals, plants, fungi, bacteria, archebacteria). I do not even pretend that it can answer anything in the realms of physics or chemistry etc etcUnseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

What he said When you feel there is enough, there is enough. If you don't either keep looking or drop it.Unseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....