What makes you unbelieve Crash ?

Don't be cynical, if I set traps I usually boast about it afterwards. But why is it you always bring up the evidence arguments in this F&B section? You have admitted that you used to have a weak faith, maybe you can't fully understand the nature of my faith and think it is arrogant, because of your lack of such faith. I am firm in my beliefs, - yes. But I don't understand why that should make me arrogant. I don't have a lock on the truth - I just am persuaded that I know it and that you can also know it. I claim to know the truth - yes, but it is because I am fully persuaded in my own mind. I am not forcing you to accept the truth, I am just telling you about the truth I know of. And all I done is take the contra-positive from that. People who do become suicide bombers are without doubtBut that doesn't logically mean that all believers without doubt will become suicide bombers.My faith and belief is from Christ - I believe in him and his teachings above all things, therefore I would never seek to take a life. So - maybe I am not your enemy, maybe those who don't believe in Christ but in other things are your enemy. Yet here you are, making me your enemy yet I do not endanger you.And here we have a biblical section for people to attack my God - like our faith is the enemy, it's almost as if we get the blame for those events rather than the necessary partakers of different beliefs. But I talk about belief in Christ and his teachings and my belief in him - wow, what a danger I am (sarcasm)- Did those bombers believe in Christ? I don't have religion or correctness. I am a believer who has a faith and cannot boast. Boasting is without effect. No-one can now boast. Read Romans. I am wrong about many things - even about some biblical things, sometimes I am indeed wrong, and have not interpreted correctly. I am fallible. I have. Here's another; "Man believes in God - let's see what evolution has to say about it......Evolution says it is necessary - so that we conquer our death-anxiety,..."My answer would be - "Stick to the how and I'll stick to the why." Good answer - and it is definately one answer if not the answer. See - even I have no literal "rule" for your interpretation - I'm open to your suggestion. I said your theory is an obsession to people - not scientists. Many here try to have a solely scientific outlook, concerning the ToE. Others have an evolution philosophy, Unseul is a good example of someone who asks evolution for an answer to almost everything. Erm, No! I am saying all those who worship the creature are predicted in the bible, and avoiding the truth won't save you from this fact. People have warped their worldviews so that evolution gives them an answer to everything. I know that Christ is the truth and my belief starts with him. Without him I am a walking flesh serving a body alive in sin = serving flesh and this life.Also - I never said that God is limited to a nomadic tribe. Many were made believers.As for your last statement, shouldn't you have a forum which is for a particular book in which people have sought to justify crashing into buildings? Shouldn't you be refuting the claims of that book?Instead - because we hold true to our belief in God and the things that are said in the bible - you attack us instead. And for what? - Because we come to a different conclusion about evidences - big deal.Edited to delte rant which was self-righteous.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 05-01-2004]

More from Shraffy: Not all of us think that way, in fact most of us don't. However, for those that do consider this: If they believe in the Bible word for word for whatever reason, then we agree it's not arrogance, right?
Now they believe it, and in it there are parts about Jesus being the only way to heaven, right? So, they believe that only Christians will be saved because they believe the Bible. It's not like (most) enjoy the thought of even the good nonbelievers going to hell; just because someone believes in it doesn't mean they like it. If it's supernatural, science won't hold a candle to it. I respect science as a great way to find facts, but I disagree with anyone who thinks there are no other ways to find the truth and understand the world around us. There are some things science will never understand that only our admittantly fallible emotions could have a chance to grasp. More or less I agree with the last statement. But really I was raised Christian but I was more agnostic myself for the first part of my life. I didn't really believe in something I couldn't see, then I realized that what I see and hear isn't all that's going on.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

No, cannot 'know' anything through faith, you believe through faith. That's kind of like when creationists say you can believe in evolution.

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I think that is a bad example because it seems to imply that there was a Religious Motive for what the 9-11 folk did.

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Often, the people that you are speaking of, and Terrorists in general, are working from a basis other than religion.True, they have a strongly held belief that they are right and that their actions are right, but it can be any strongly held belief.

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Al Qaida is a religious organization, actively working against secularism. One thing that each of the bombers had in common was a history of very devout religious fanatacism.Are you actually suggesting that the suicide bombers didn't likely believe that they were going to be rewarded in the afterlife for this specific deed?I am not saying that political motivations are not also mixed up in there, but I also think that the promise of great riches in heaven, and the utter lack of self-doubt or doubt in what they have been taught, makes getting people to do it much easier.

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If there was a miracle and suddenly, at dawn tomorrow, every Jew in Israel awoke to find that they had converted to Islam, the suicide bombing in Palestine would still go on.

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Probably, because the promises of riches in heaven for those who die in a jihad are great.The way the suicide bombings would be reduced is if Every Moslem and every Jew were to wake up tomorrow as rational Atheists.

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The mass murders in Cambodia, Russia, Nigeria, Mosambique, Ethiopia and many, many other instances are not because of religion.

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I don't know about all of these conflicts, but what about this?:http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/362/12591_Fatwa.html"Islamic philosopher Yusuf Kardavi has published Fatwa (also spelled as Fatawah or Fatawa, a set of rulings and decisions of Islamic doctrine; affirmed under a recognized authority such as True Mufti), in which he calls Chechen insurgents to continue military actions against Russian troops and promises Heaven in return."

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But suicide bombings or other horrific acts can and are committed by people without strongly held beliefs. There are those that kill for fun, because someone got in their face or for money.

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I never said that ALL killings, or even MOST killings or bombings are committed by people with strong beliefs.I was talking specifically about suicide bombers, particularly the ones from 9/11, who's devout religious beliefs most certainly strongly influenced their descisions all along the way.The only secular suicide bombers that I can think of were the kamikaze of Japan in WWII. Do you have any examples of current suicide bombers who are not strongly motivated by their religious faith?

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Simplistically relating the strength of ones religious beliefs to anything as horrific as terrorism is simply unsupportable.

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Are you saying that a person who has absolute, unshakable faiththat he will go directly to heaven if he kills a bunch of people in a fatwah is not more likely to do it than someone who isn't totally sure?

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Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety--Karla McLaren

Of course. Absolutely.Let's assume that as you suggested, tomorrow morning, every Muslim in Palestine and every Jew in Israel wakes up to find that they are Atheists. Would anything change?IMHO, no. The Atheist Palistinians will still be living in the camps and the Atheist Israelis will still be living in the cities. The Athiest Araffat will still want to be the leader of the Athiest State of Palistine and want the Athiest Israelis driven into the sea.While religion is often used and misused as a way to motivate horrible acts, it is not the only thing that would lead people to sacrifice themselves for a cause. It could be Booth shooting Lincoln, the assasin(s) that blew up Alexander II, the Athiestic pogrom of Stalin, Mao or Pot.And under it all, the most common REAL cause is that some group wants to change facts on the ground, to gain power or wealth.Al Queda misuses religion. No one will argue that. But the underlying cause is not ISLAM, it is that they want to change the power structure in the Middle East.Acts of violence, whether those of 9-11, shooting Lincoln, Kennedy, Roosvelt, Reagan often require belief in something, but it could be a philosophy, political cause, power, freedom or wealth.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You missed the slight subtlety. The question is would it be more likely. I don't think there is anyway to prove or disprove this (well not easily). But it seems to me that if you take someone with lots of other reasons for doing something (power, revenge etc) and then put them into a dogmatic, God is on my side, I am without doubt right frame of mind then it seems that you have significantly increased the likelyhood of them acting.I might say a lot more likely you might say only a little. I don't see how to settle that.

I spose i so ask evolution a lot of questions. But this is because i am doing a Zoology degree, hoping to really concentrate on behaviour. So i find that there can be several answers, and selfish genes seem to be able to answer a lot of questions. If i was watching chemical reactions i would look to the basics of chemical reactions, redox etc etc. I'd goto Newtons theorys for physical interactions. I just find evolution can hold a lot of explainations, that always seem to fit extremely well.However i dont like being told i dont have a scientific outlook on ToE. If you test a theory, and find that the numbers fit its still following scientific theory. I suppose i take it further in terms of examples than most, but this is because as i have said i like behaviour a lot, whereas most just stick to the physical side of things. This isnt taking evolution as a philosophy i put this forward more a considering the other side of evolution, afterall many basic behaviours are genetically conferred. But we cant really study these as well with fossils, just surmise as to why they would occur. Perhaps its not as solid science, but the fact that you can test any animal behaviour (albeit it may take many years) and put it upto the theory to explain, does give it falsifiability, and so makes it scientific theory phew.Unseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

I agree that some belief in an afterlife might add to someone's ability to carry tsuch an act through, but I also believe there are many, many examples of people being willing and even eager to commit murder or other horrible acts for any strongly held belief.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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I agree that some belief in an afterlife might add to someone's ability to carry tsuch an act through, but I also believe there are many, many examples of people being willing and even eager to commit murder or other horrible acts for any strongly held belief.

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That's why I said, in my last post, that I did not think that many, or even most killings were done in the name of religion. Many are done in the name of patriotism, or loyalty to the state or crown or clan.However, I also said that it wasn't just some "belief in an afterlife" that strongly encouraged people, but an absolute belief that they will go directly to heaven if they persorm the specific task of sacrificing themsseslves to a fatwa while killing lots of their perceived enemy.If every Israeli and every Palistinian woke up as Atheists tomorrow morning, somehow I don't think that "sacred, holy temple"-thing would cause conflict in quite the same way it does now.It is specifically the lack of doubt in one's beliefs, be they religious or otherwise, that is dangerous, and that is my point.

The sacred holy temple thing is simply what is being used to justify what is really about land, power and posession.What is happening in Palestine is NOT about religion. It is about who will occupy the land, who will be in power. If overnight, all the parties became devout atheists, the issues of power, the issues of control, would still exist. All that would change would be that the fanatics would have to come up with some other justification (race, oppression, color of eyes) to use to inflame some people.If you look at the history of man, basic ingenuity has never failed to find some justification.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Unseul,re: You can change your beliefs...And that is what I would like to learn. How do you CHOOSE to do that - consciously CHOOSE to believe something? Exactly what do you do that allows you to say: Okay, I have obtained information about X and while I still do not believe that X exists, I am going to CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that X exists and - poof - I now believe that X exists? Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron. So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

Born2Preach,re: ...the Bible also talks about the flesh which does its share in deception and doubt. We're all supposed to have it even after our Rebirth, so I guess we all have some doubt according to scripture, huh?I guess we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I simply don’t see how a person can doubt that a supreme being exists and at the same time be saved.

Schraff, answer me. Message #151.
....Doubting Thomas. Get back, get back!

I could do with a bit more proof about the leprechauns. I spose for me thats what its down to, proof. But i still choose whether or not it is sufficient proof. I mean if i was to look up all info pos on leprechauns etc etc then i maybe closer to believing.I think i understand what you are getting at. And its extremely philosophical. OK, just theorising here, i believe in a god, and yet felt there were a few things that didnt quite fit. I read some ancient manuscripts from some other religions tht preaches a very close thing, but not quite, these few things seem to be cover much better, then i believe that i would choose to change my beliefs at that point. I suppose that is what i have really done with my athiesm, i have assessed what knowledge i have, and made a decision based on that knowledge.I think you are trying to say that most the time you just believe things because thats what you believe. However i think that if you sit down, and actually go through what you know about a subject, then your beliefs can change.Fraid its all a bit hardcore for 1.30am tho Unseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

You have made a decision with that knowledge, yet your knowledge is limited. I know you seek proof, maybe our talks can continue in this topic. I still think you have not asked God himself if he exists. You should make that prayer - don't be a doubting Thomas like Schraff, open your mind and ask Christ about his existence, then you can set your sights on the realities of heaven.