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Author Topic:   What if God foreknew human reactions?
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 92 of 137 (245758)
09-22-2005 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by cavediver
09-22-2005 4:27 AM


Re: YO
quote:
We are debating the impact of a god's foreknowledge of OUR actions, remember? That is all. Given that actions are tied to Th, THAT is all that is important.
NO that is NOT all we are debating. God's role in creating our universe is ALSO an essential part of my argument. Given that I have already had to correct you on this point I would have hoped that you would remember. And sinxe in your model Tg is important to THAT, Tg IS important.
quote:
Huh? And whose point of view is that? It is a perfect description of
an eternal universe in any sense that I am aware.
I explicitly stated the point of view in the section you quoted !
And your point in introducing an addiitonal time dimension was so that our universe would NOT be eternal in that dimension to get around the problem of how a truly eternal universe could have a creator. YOu can't honestly have it both ways.
quote:
Believe me, there is failure of understanding but it does not reside in me at the moment...
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are simply dead wrong in this assertion. After all you have failed to even remember what it is we are discussing.
quote:
We are talking about a god's omniscience wrt Th.
Wrong. My argument is based on the idea that God knows the future. Your super-cosmology complicates the picture by introducing two time-dimensions and two futures. It is my perogative to decide how this is to be dealt with in my argument - not yours.
quote:
Explain away.
Easy enough - especially as I already did it.. To repeat the point it is illegitmate to talk ogf God's actions in terms of Tg because we are not aware of it, then that must apply to your arguments as well as mine. Simple. Where is the problem ??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by cavediver, posted 09-22-2005 4:27 AM cavediver has not replied

  
Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 93 of 137 (245780)
09-22-2005 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by macaroniandcheese
09-22-2005 12:41 PM


Re: Believe It or Not
Is it usual to "question" the Torah? Or is this what is mean't by Rabbinical commentaries and the great oral tradition?
How about the Messiah? Why was Jesus so un-Messiahlike? (OR NOT?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-22-2005 12:41 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-22-2005 5:06 PM Phat has replied
 Message 98 by DominionSeraph, posted 09-22-2005 5:29 PM Phat has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 94 of 137 (245781)
09-22-2005 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
09-22-2005 5:02 PM


Re: Believe It or Not
you'd have to ask a jew.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 09-22-2005 5:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 09-22-2005 5:16 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 137 (245782)
09-22-2005 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by PaulK
09-21-2005 4:23 PM


Re: I dunno
PaulK writes:
liking an idea has nothing to do with whether it is true or not.
How about believing an idea? In other words, Could God be true whether or not we see the slighest bit of evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by PaulK, posted 09-21-2005 4:23 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by DominionSeraph, posted 09-22-2005 5:34 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 100 by PaulK, posted 09-22-2005 5:34 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 137 (245784)
09-22-2005 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by macaroniandcheese
09-22-2005 5:06 PM


Re: Believe It or Not
brennakimi writes:
you'd have to ask a jew.
What? Why is it legit to comment on N.T. Protestantism without being a Protestant, while it is "inappropriate" to discuss the Torah if not Jewish?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-22-2005 5:06 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
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DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 97 of 137 (245787)
09-22-2005 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by New Cat's Eye
09-22-2005 1:48 AM


Catholic Scientist writes:
Is omnipotence limited to any laws? If it is then it isn't omnipotenece.
Which is a law unto itself, so it's self-contradictory.
This message has been edited by DominionSeraph, 09-22-2005 05:26 PM

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 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-22-2005 1:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

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DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 98 of 137 (245789)
09-22-2005 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
09-22-2005 5:02 PM


Re: Believe It or Not
Phatboy writes:
How about the Messiah? Why was Jesus so un-Messiahlike?
Didn't restore the Davidic Kingdom. No world peace. And he died, so he certainly didn't end death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 09-22-2005 5:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 09-22-2005 5:36 PM DominionSeraph has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 99 of 137 (245790)
09-22-2005 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
09-22-2005 5:14 PM


Re: I dunno
Phatboy writes:
How about believing an idea? In other words, Could God be true whether or not we see the slighest bit of evidence?
Of course. But anything which leaves no evidence is irrelevant.

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 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-22-2005 5:14 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-23-2005 1:23 AM DominionSeraph has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 100 of 137 (245791)
09-22-2005 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
09-22-2005 5:14 PM


Re: I dunno
All sorts of things COULD be true. Catholic Scientist's idea of God isn't one of them. In my view many other Christian ideas of God are also impossible, but not all of them.
But to say that something COULD be true is to say very little. If that is the best you can say of it then you haven't got a good reason to think that it is true.
Could Christianity be a complete fraud which exists only to feed a soul-eating demon ? It could. But I don't believe that even though it doesn't make any less sense to me than orthodox Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-22-2005 5:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 09-22-2005 5:43 PM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 137 (245792)
09-22-2005 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by DominionSeraph
09-22-2005 5:29 PM


Re: Believe It or Not
OK...so the "perfect" Messiah would bring about world peace, restore the Davidic Kingdom to just one ethnic group, and would never die...right?
I guess someday some alien will show up with superpowers and we will fall for that one!
Anyway...My point stands for all of us: God foreknew that we would think the way that we do.
Mark 13:6-- Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by DominionSeraph, posted 09-22-2005 5:29 PM DominionSeraph has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 137 (245793)
09-22-2005 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by PaulK
09-22-2005 5:34 PM


A good Agnostic
You certainly have many valid and solid arguments, Paul. I don't know exactly what you believe, but I DO know that when you consider the possibility of God, you have let Him know that you will never let your faith stand in the way of your intelligence!
I never let my intelligence stand in the way of my faith.
Even if I were an agnostic, I would never be an atheist, because it comforts me to know that if humanity fails me or my family, I would have a chance at survival without counting on human wisdom alone.
Perhaps this was similar to the last thoughts in the South Tower...
Did God foreknow that certain people would die on a certain day at a certain time? Did He make His Spirit available to them at the moment when they were faced with burning to death or jumping out a window?
Was it literally a leap of faith for them, or a leap of agony? I believe that it was faith for them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by PaulK, posted 09-22-2005 5:34 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by PaulK, posted 09-22-2005 5:52 PM Phat has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 103 of 137 (245794)
09-22-2005 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
09-22-2005 5:43 PM


Re: A good Agnostic
Do you think that your chance of survival depends on what you beleive ?
Some - not that uncommon - Christian views hold that you will be tortured for eternity if you happened to belong to the wrong Church. I'd rather cease to exist than face that.
And here's one of the issues I have with Christianity - no just and merciful God who wants to save everyone would make salvation dependent on doctrinal correctness when there is no way for us to know what the correct doctrine really is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 09-22-2005 5:43 PM Phat has replied

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 Message 104 by Phat, posted 09-22-2005 6:20 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 104 of 137 (245796)
09-22-2005 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by PaulK
09-22-2005 5:52 PM


Re: A good Agnostic
I agree with you. God judges us on where we are and where we know (or do not know) Him to be. The judgement is on whether we want Him to be in our lives or not. Some people say that they want Him, but then on their own terms. Others want nothing to do with Him yet would invite a stranger into their house from the cold.
PaulK writes:
Do you think that your chance of survival depends on what you beleive?
Only if I know in my heart that my belief is what I accept. I can then not go against what I have accepted.
Religion has nothing much to do with it at all.
You are better off questioning and praying in private and leaving the religious folks alone. It IS good for me as a believer to have a couple of like-minded folk to pray with. (In a way, even if we each do it privately, we are in communion)
Salvation is an issue of the heart.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-22-2005 04:23 PM

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 105 of 137 (245837)
09-22-2005 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
09-22-2005 5:16 PM


Re: Believe It or Not
i'm just saying i don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 09-22-2005 5:16 PM Phat has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 137 (245852)
09-23-2005 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by DominionSeraph
09-22-2005 5:24 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
Is omnipotence limited to any laws? If it is then it isn't omnipotenece.
Which is a law unto itself, so it's self-contradictory.
and?, I mean, so what?
This message has been edited by Catholic Scientist, 09-23-2005 12:21 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by DominionSeraph, posted 09-22-2005 5:24 PM DominionSeraph has not replied

  
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