Importance of Innerrancy to Moderate Christians

Background: LinearAq was saved when he was 16 and spent 26 years in a sinusoidal path of faith...sometimes strong, sometimes backsliding. At age 42, I decided that I would devote myself to becoming what God wanted me to be. I studied the Bible and many commentaries from within the evangelical movement and avoided anything that spoke against the veracity of the Word. At first, I felt I was becoming a better man of God. I became a deacon and a boy's group leader. Then I started seeing inconsistencies in the Bible....things that didn't fit with the God that was being preached and written about in the commentaries. I saw people within our district of churches passionately fight my ministries, proclaiming that the Holy Spirit led them to do so, even though I was sure the Holy Spirit was leading me to do those ministries. These were people of God who, like me, had lead others to Christ. Their fruits were like my fruits. I could find no way to resolve who was following the Holy Spirit and who was being deceived. When I questioned any teaching I was looked upon as if I had pounded the nails in Christ myself. The more I studied, the worse it got.
I want the saving grace of Christ to be true but the surety I had is not there.
So, perhaps I cannot understand your point of view, but let's try anyway. Are you always aware when you are out of touch?Is it the confusion that provides the knowledge that you are out of touch?Is it always the same?Is it similar to the feeling you get when you are driving and can't find your way? How so? By saying "He will do something" are you saying that He will not always do the same thing?Is it a feeling of surety that lets you know the something comes from Him?Have you ever felt sure that you were following the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and then found out you were wrong?How did that feeling of surety compare with the real surety of knowing He was providing inspiration?If someone can think they are following the Holy Spirit when they are following their flesh even though they are sincere about following Him, couldn't they have deluded themselves into thinking they were saved, when they were not? Please explain how this could or could not happen.

Wow, these are pretty heavy questions, that I'm not qualified to answer, especially since I have similar problems, at least at times.There is nothing more painful than being at odds with your fellow Christians about discernment and ministry issues. But this is why the Bible as foundation is so necessary, although of course even there we run into interpretation disagreements. But it was the Bible that kept me through a similar conflict about 15 years ago. I knew I was right. It was not a victory I could enjoy though, to say the least, and I still feel repercussions from the whole thing. In fact I can date my problems with confusion and doubt from that time.These are big questions involved in how we know we are being led by the Spirit. Some people answer it too glibly, people I think never really experienced such leadings to an extent to be concerned about them. They just deny personal leadings altogether.I never questioned the basics of the faith, never got near that kind of doubt, but I certainly have questioned my own experiences, my own sense of God's leadings, many times, and haven't found counseling on this subject yet that I feel I can trust.I'm not sure it's a good idea to say anything more specific than that on this public debate site, although there certainly is a lot to think about in this area. I keep thinking of starting a forum for people to talk about these things as a matter of fact, and you just reminded me of that. I mean a forum off evc, on one of the big forum sites. If I set something like that up would you be interested?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

It does sound interesting. However, I may be antagonistic toward the more glib ("it's so easy!!!) kind of posters. A lot of what has happened still stings a lot. It has been said that Christians kill their wounded and I feel that I experienced it first hand.I agree that the questions are pretty heavy. They are partly to point out that we cannot always be sure we are right even if we are sincere about our desire to understand.
There are many moderate Christians who are greatly devoted to Christ and have enormous impact in their community. Yet they don't believe in an innerrant Bible or young earth. They read their Bible and gain inspiration from it to reach others for Christ to save.If the Holy Spirit isn't with them then how do they do it?If the Holy Spirit is with them then how is it they keep getting the basics (literal Bible, Created not evolved...etc) wrong?Either the Holy Spirit doesn't exist and these deluded people are working under their own power to convert others to their religion, or God really isn't concerned with a literal reading of the Bible.

i'd prefer my textbooks to have less holes than say, shakespearean plays. one is meant to guide my actions; the other to guide my thoughts.

I can say something similar about my own experience. I've never found a way back to the closeness to God I had before and it makes me miserable to think about it. I hate my spending so much time at evc sometimes, just arguing about stuff to keep myself entertained it seems, because I know I'm doing this because I'm so pessimistic that I'll ever find my way back. And when I try to get back I always hit this same particular area of confusion and doubt that keeps me from continuing. In my case it's a fear that if I get really serious about prayer I'll have the experiences I used to have of being led in a certain direction that now I have to doubt. The conflict is agonizing. Is that God or isn't it? Am I refusing Him or should I reject these things because they aren't from Him? And of course my Christian life suffers enormously from my avoidance of exactly the thing I need, more prayer. And yes, Christian friends are NOT a help, so I won't discuss it with them any more. It's not their fault either; they just don't get it and they say all the wrong things.But even with this talk group I keep wanting to start, even trying to avoid inviting someone who has a glib attitude, we could all be walking wounded with no ability to really think about each other's problems. I might say all the wrong things to you for instance. Obviously we don't agree on many things so there's plenty of room for complete miscommunication. This is true, but I'd beware of making it into an excuse to say nobody is ever right about anything in the Christian life. The Holy Spirit may be with them. I strongly believe in the inerrant Bible and young earth myself, but I don't consider those things necessary for salvation. I think it's possible to be a genuine Christian with quite a bit of bad theology -- but only up to a point, and it's hard to define that point. Unfortunately, it's not impossible at all for people to be enamored of the Christian message and get inspired to do good things simply on an intellectual basis, not being saved at all, never having had the Holy Spirit at all. {EDIT: First I should have said that these aren't the basics at all. The basics have to do with Jesus Christ's being God and trusting Him to save us from our sins. We really don't HAVE to know much more than that as far as salvation goes}Some Christians just have weak faith. God gifts us with faith to different degrees. We get the Holy Spirit BY MEASURE, not all of Him. He enlightens us according to His own will, not ours. OR, possibly they aren't saved. It would take knowing a lot more about a particular case to have any idea which applies. {edit: 1)Well, the Holy Spirit certainly does exist. I may not be sure where He is leading at any particular point but I have no doubts whatever that I have experienced Him. 2) These people you are talking about MAY be working under their own power. That can happen.}
3) But also I don't think God IS terribly concerned with a literal reading of the Bible although I think a literal reading is the right one. Simply not accepting some parts of the Bible is not a problem so much as aggressively opposing or contradicting it, however. I think God gives some people strong faith in some areas and not others, and leads them by His Spirit for specific purposes although they are still, say, "baby Christians" whose faith can't embrace more than that. Some new Christians are full of faith and the Spirit although they understand practically nothing. This doesn't mean that wrong understanding is a good thing of course, just that faith can exist in spite of it. Up to a point.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Me? I view it as an addiction. It seems to me (for me) to have all the classic hallmarks of one.- inability to say no. A certain powerlessness.
- diminishing returns: the good wears off and you are left with a hollowed out shell (Screwtape describes how Satan applies addiction nail-on-head).
- guilt (Satan too).
- occasional highs of old just to keep the hook in. Especially when one gets to thinking "something smells".
- putting up with heavily cut gear (in the form of poor posts) for the sake of a fix.
- being defensive and irrational when it comes to facing the fact it is an addiction.I could go on but it seems clear enough to me. I imagine that EvC is the perfect home for an argumentitive, self-righteous nature. And half the solution to any problem is realising one has one in the first place. I imagine to that the solution is relatively straightforward. No more EvC. Does that feel like a huge loss? Then for sure it is addiction!Whenever you say sis, lets both decide on a day to exit. And stay away. It may be that (as Screwtape once said) "its as simple as that". We can spend the time praying for each other. If not his will then we can expect all the assistance of one who loves us not a jot less for our addiction.We cannot serve God and Mammon.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Hmm... I can remember when Shakepeare's plays were used as textbooks. What's the difference? I don't see the dichotomy there either. Don't your thoughts guide your actions? Can't you think your way around a few holes?An inerrant Bible may be a comfort for non-thinking people, but thinking people are able to separate the wheat from the chaff. They can get some value out of the Bible even if everything in it isn't perfect.

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Welcome home.

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Problem is, bro, my addiction is keeping me from experiencing my frustration about my spiritual life, and that's just going to be there anyway if I take a day off. And I'll come right back after. But let's do it at some point, a day of serious prayer, not just an empty unplanned day off. Takes some preps. Maybe a little fasting.

Thats what I said.

You (and me) have the frustration re: your (and my) spiritual life already. And you and me know it. "Your (and mine) addiction" is patently a big factor in it. No doubt about it as far as I am concerned. The conviction is there just not the power.I'm prepared to pray and fast alongside you. I'll mail you tomorrow on it. Am off to bed soon and I haven't really thought it through. But I am convicted as I need to be. This is Mammon.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

As Tuco said: "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."Don't waste bandwidth with long goodbyes.

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Who the fuco is tuco and why, pray tell, should I give a rats ass about what he has to say?(Gee: this Lord-of-all bashing is FUN!)Wasting bandwidth. Now thats funny!

That's the best joke you've done in nearly 4000 posts. Here's a website that might help you in your quest for knowledge.

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Jar writes: I'm glad you pointed this out.I had a fundamentalist Protestant friend in college who argued with me once over pizza about inerrancy. The Bible was the infallible Word of God. No contradictions, no errors.For the record, let me state that my friend gave every appearance of being someone who had spent a lot of time with his Bible. He had a prooftext for every occasion. At the drop of a hat he could quote John 3.16 and any number of other passages to explain why he and his church thought as they thought and did what they did.I raised the question of the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books recognized by Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christianity. I got the standard explanation that these books were not inspired, but contained valuable supplemental history.I said 'So what is it in the book of Obadiah that convinced you it was infallible?My friend choked on his 7-Up. I repeated the question. When I again got no answer I asked if he could tell me what was in the book of Obadiah.He admitted he had never read Obadiah. But the fact that the text was inerrant, and vital to salvation--this my friend knew.My next question: 'So what is it about 3 Maccabees that made you decide it was not inspired? What was the giveaway?'My friend admitted he had never read 3 Maccabees--its recently asserted value as supplemental history notwithstanding.'The Wisdom of Sirach'?Had never even heard of it. But knew it was uninspired and 'errant,' regardless of what those Orthodox Christians think.Now, not everyone who asserts inerrancy is that badly read. But most are. Thousands of people who affirm the doctrine claim divine origin for texts they have not read and deny it to texts that fall in the same category.'Inerrant' is a lot to claim for a documents one has not examined. And 'Word of God' is a downright strange thing to say of a document one has ignored.All of this raises the question of exactly who--or what--is really infallible. The real answer turns out to be their herd. They know which books are inspired and which are not because they have been told by their preacher, their parents, the Council of Nicaea and the Zondervan Bible Company. When the herd says it, they believe it, and that settles it.

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Archer