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Author Topic:   What evidence absolutely rules out a Creator
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 49 of 300 (294804)
03-13-2006 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by robinrohan
03-12-2006 11:40 PM


If fossils tell the truth, then evolution is true.
If fossils say what we think they say, then evolution is true.
If evolution is true, then this so-called God created a world in which, in order to survive, life forms had to feed off other life forms in order to survive.
Logical leap that lands you in hot water. You've just argued that the existence of animals disproves God. All animals feed off other life forms in order to survive. Herbivores eat plants, carnivores eat other animals. Who cares about the fossils - currently living animals are enough.
This created a killing field. This does not sound like the good God we know of from our catechism.
So you made up a God, and disproved his existence. Now, JHWH, that jealous God who is Wrath, the one that asks for animal sacrifices - is he the kind of God who'd have a problem with a biological killing field? This is the kind oF God that allowed Job's life to get seriously screwed up, just to see if Job would curse his name.
That kind of God is perfectly capable of making life on earth a killing field - just to see if we keep faith.
Therefore, the fossils prove there is no God.
Except that they only disprove your specific definition of God...not everyone's definition of God. You don't get to decide which definition of God is the right one I'm afraid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 11:40 PM robinrohan has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 286 of 300 (296431)
03-18-2006 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by robinrohan
03-14-2006 10:53 PM


Re: Logic?
According to several religions, there is such a thing as "sin," which cannot be committed unless we are aware of right and wrong. If we did not know in basic terms what is right and what is wrong, the concept of sin would be meaningless. We would have the moral status of animals. Animals cannot commit sin, just as they cannot commit a crime.
According to this tradition, then, we know what's right and wrong, and we can examine events and make judgements. There may be complicated situations which are puzzling, but we know the basics.
Theologically speaking then, before the Fall, all creatures, including humans did not know the difference between right and wrong. Adam/Eve did not kill any other creatures - they were the first to have an awareness of what not to do (disobey God) yet they did it anyway.
Evolution does not rule out a Fall at all. Everything up to the Fall could have evolved as we know it with no sin (you said it yourself, there is no sin without a concept of right/wrong). Humanity was given the concept of right/wrong (don't disobey God). They disobeyed God, and fell into sin.
It's probably the clearest argument you've put forward, but it fails to formal logic because it excludes other possibilities.
God need not have chosen the set-up of life as it is under evolution. He might have made all animals herbivores; he might have tossed manna from heaven on a daily basis. He did not do this. Instead he chose a killing field.
The nature of reality raises some questions theologically. Why was there a pre-fall killing field? Unfortunately, since we don't know the reasons why God decided to create the universe/life/humans in the way he did, we can't assess using our good/evil knowledge whether or not those reasons were good or evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by robinrohan, posted 03-14-2006 10:53 PM robinrohan has not replied

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