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Author Topic:   What evidence absolutely rules out a Creator
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 226 of 300 (296072)
03-16-2006 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by jar
03-16-2006 7:00 PM


Re: What do you think.
Because GOD is beyond proof and verification. We can believe in Her, believe very strongly, but we cannot know. Once we've died we may find out, but until then I'm happy with just a belief.
What you seem to say is that it is not possible for God to provide proof of his existance to an individual.
How do you know this?
(If answering then maybe AbE in your last post... as will I. I don't want to OT absorb remaining posts at this juncture)
{AbE in response to post 228 by Jar)
Jar writes:
I'm not even sure I can understand the concept of individual proof?
You were climbing in the Grand Canyon. You stubbed your toe against a rock a cried "Bugger". You didn't stub it bad enough to mark it nor did you have a video of the event. You were alone at the time. Doesn't knowing you stubbed you toe ace (as far as you are concerned) being able to prove it to others?
My question remains on this basis: How do you know?
{Abe in response to Jars msg 233}
Jar writes:
My answer to your funny little story, "No, my knowing I stubbed my toe is not proof that I stubbed my toe to anyone else."
Read it again Jar. I already said you cannot prove you stubbed you toe to others. But you know you did. Which is the issue at hand. Remember:
iano writes:
What you seem to say is that it is not possible for God to provide proof of his existance to an individual
Can God do as I suggest he could? Could he demonstrate to an individual that he exists. If not, how do you know he can't.
This message has been edited by iano, 17-Mar-2006 01:23 AM
This message has been edited by iano, 17-Mar-2006 01:24 AM
This message has been edited by iano, 17-Mar-2006 01:45 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 7:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 7:17 PM iano has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 300 (296073)
03-16-2006 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by jar
03-16-2006 6:57 PM


Re: What do you think.
LOL
Thank's Robin. That's a jewel. I could not have asked for greater support for my position.
I'm glad you are amused. I like to amuse people. However, my definition of the word "fact" is "that which is true."
So what I was saying was that I believe it is true that evolution rules out God. I'm not sure how that supports your position. It seems to be in direct contradiction to it.
I present my best support of my position
You haven't presented any support yet. You can start, if you like, by refuting my points in message #163 of this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 6:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 7:28 PM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 228 of 300 (296074)
03-16-2006 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by iano
03-16-2006 7:11 PM


Individual proof?
What you seem to say is that it is not possible for God to provide proof of his existance to an individual.
I'm not even sure I can understand the concept of individual proof?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by iano, posted 03-16-2006 7:11 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by iano, posted 03-16-2006 7:35 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 229 of 300 (296076)
03-16-2006 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by robinrohan
03-16-2006 7:13 PM


Re: What do you think.
You are free to believe I have not presented my evidence, but for the record I'll gladly provide it once again:
In addition, as I have pointed out many times before:
If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence that rules out Her existence.
If GOD does not exist, It does not exist regardless of any evidence that proves Its existence.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by robinrohan, posted 03-16-2006 7:13 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by robinrohan, posted 03-16-2006 7:37 PM jar has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 230 of 300 (296080)
03-16-2006 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by jar
03-16-2006 7:17 PM


Re: Individual proof?
I've edited my last post to reply. If you would like to reply then edit your last post so as not to incur the righteous wrath of an admin for OT posting. Otherwise feel free to leave it.
And leave "How do you know?" hanging in your corner...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 7:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 7:51 PM iano has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 231 of 300 (296081)
03-16-2006 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by jar
03-16-2006 7:28 PM


Re: What do you think.
If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence that rules out Her existence.
If GOD does not exist, It does not exist regardless of any evidence that proves Its existence
You call that an argument? I'm saying that God does not exist--I'm not offering any "ifs" here--and I'm saying that evolution proves it. See my specific points in message #163.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 7:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 7:53 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 03-16-2006 8:58 PM robinrohan has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 232 of 300 (296083)
03-16-2006 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by iano
03-16-2006 7:35 PM


Re: Individual proof?
My answer to your funny little story, "No, my knowing I stubbed my toe is not proof that I stubbed my toe to anyone else."
Once again, there is no evidence that can either prove or refute a Creator.
If there was a creator, there was a creator regardless of what the evidence shows.
If there was not a creator, then there was not a creator regardless of what the evidence shows.
Trying to prove or disprove GOD is simply an absurd excercise for those who are unsure of their beliefs, either for or against. It is a futile waste of time since GOD is not dependant on whether or not anyone believes in Her.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by iano, posted 03-16-2006 7:35 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 9:34 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 233 of 300 (296085)
03-16-2006 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by robinrohan
03-16-2006 7:37 PM


Re: What do you think.
You call that an argument? I'm saying that God does not exist--I'm not offering any "ifs" here--and I'm saying that evolution proves it. See my specific points in message #163.
Yes, it is an argument, pretty damn strong one.
robin, it doesn't matter what you believe. Your beliefs have NOTHING to do with reality.
If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence that rules out Her existence.
If GOD does not exist, It does not exist regardless of any evidence that proves Its existence

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by robinrohan, posted 03-16-2006 7:37 PM robinrohan has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 234 of 300 (296087)
03-16-2006 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by veiledvirtue
03-16-2006 2:21 PM


Re: What do you think.
quote:
evolution takes faith
God takes faith
Does the Germ Theoy of Disease take faith in the same way God takes faith?
Does the Theory of a Heliocentric Solar System take faith in the same way God takes faith?
Does the Atomic Theory of Matter take faith in the same way God takes faith?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by veiledvirtue, posted 03-16-2006 2:21 PM veiledvirtue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by veiledvirtue, posted 03-18-2006 12:46 AM nator has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 235 of 300 (296091)
03-16-2006 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by robinrohan
03-16-2006 7:37 PM


robinrohan the true rationalist?
What a puzzle. A nihilist who believes in evolution has all the evos on his case while the Biblical fundamentalists are his fans (Iano and me).
My theory is that you are the only true rationalist among the evos. Maybe there's a better word for it but that's the one that occurs to me. And I think it also illustrates that Biblical fundamentalism is the height of rationality, despite all they say against us, which is why we appreciate you. But it certainly is odd.
Of course in saying this I'm insulting everybody else here and they certainly aren't going to agree with me.
But what else is new?
May your clear thinking be Christ's way of leading you to Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by robinrohan, posted 03-16-2006 7:37 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by iano, posted 03-16-2006 10:18 PM Faith has replied
 Message 253 by PaulK, posted 03-17-2006 2:25 AM Faith has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 300 (296097)
03-16-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by jar
03-16-2006 7:51 PM


Re: Individual proof?
Jar writes:
Once again, there is no evidence that can either prove or refute a Creator.
We Biblical fundamentalists see lots of evidence for a Creator. I wouldn't go so far as to say you're wilfully ignorant, but I do think that if you were to approach the fulfilled prophecies and a lot more of the Bible literally, like the historical record, you would wake up and smell the Creator's evidence coffee.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 7:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 9:37 PM Buzsaw has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 237 of 300 (296098)
03-16-2006 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Buzsaw
03-16-2006 9:34 PM


Re: Individual proof?
We Biblical fundamentalists see lots of evidence for a Creator. I wouldn't go so far as to say you're wilfully ignorant, but I do think that if you were to approach the fulfilled prophecies and a lot more of the Bible literally, like the historical record, you would wake up and smell the Creator's evidence coffee.
Fine buz. If anyone can ever come across a fulfilled prophecy, maybe you can start a thread on it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 9:34 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by ramoss, posted 03-16-2006 9:51 PM jar has replied
 Message 241 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 10:01 PM jar has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 238 of 300 (296099)
03-16-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by jar
03-16-2006 6:42 PM


Re: What do you think.
Jar writes:
Humans can never have anything except a belief in GOD. We cannot know for sure and anyone who says that they know for sure is simply fooling themselves.
Those of us who've come to the status of children of the father, Jehovah god and who've come to receive his son Jesus as lord and savior, being born again (from above) by his Holy Spirit have come to know for sure he exists. He reveals himself to those who've come to know him in numerous ways. It's something only his children who've received his son having received his spirit experience. We can't prove it to you, except to point out things like the prophecies et al. I could write a book on just the spectacular answers to prayer I've received over the past 6 decades as a fundamentalist Christian.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 6:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 9:57 PM Buzsaw has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 239 of 300 (296100)
03-16-2006 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by jar
03-16-2006 9:37 PM


Re: Individual proof?
The trouble with 'prophecy' is that it is often so vague almost anything can 'prove' it.. or it is written after the fact, or is decieded to be a prophecy after the fact, and shoehorned into place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 9:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 10:11 PM ramoss has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 240 of 300 (296101)
03-16-2006 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Buzsaw
03-16-2006 9:49 PM


The Epistle of buz
That's nice buz. I have never doubted that you believe all that.
But what does it have to do with the thread?
If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence that She does not exist, or regardless of whether anyone doubts She exists.
If GOD does not exist, It does not exist regardless of any evidence that It does exist, or regardless of whether anyone believes It exists.
Discussing whether there is proof GOD exists or evidence that shows GOD does not exist is simply mental masturbation.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 9:49 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 10:07 PM jar has replied

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