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Author Topic:   What evidence absolutely rules out a Creator
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 241 of 300 (296102)
03-16-2006 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by jar
03-16-2006 9:37 PM


Re: Individual proof?
Jar writes:

Humans can never have anything except a belief in GOD. We cannot know for sure and anyone who says that they know for sure is simply fooling themselves.

Again, Jar, my friend, I'm not saying you're being wilfully ignorant, but I've posted a number of Biblical prophecies over the years which you've rejected as such. Your concept of God seems to be some she or it who is incapable of miracle, unlike, him, the Biblical supernatural God.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 9:37 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 242 of 300 (296103)
03-16-2006 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by jar
03-16-2006 9:57 PM


Re: The Epistle of buz
Jar writes:

But what does it have to do with the thread?

The thread is about evidence of God. Right? I'm saying ones who know him have evidence that unbelievers are not aware of and that unbelievers also have evidence which they reject, such as the prophecies.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 9:57 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 10:17 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 254 by PaulK, posted 03-17-2006 2:32 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30980
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 243 of 300 (296104)
03-16-2006 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by ramoss
03-16-2006 9:51 PM


Re: Individual proof?
The trouble with 'prophecy' is that it is often so vague almost anything can 'prove' it.. or it is written after the fact, or is decieded to be a prophecy after the fact, and shoehorned into place.

Yup. It's an easy substitute for having to think about your faith. And it is all so pointless because in the end, it doesn't prove a damn thing either way and just makes the folk promoting them look silly.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by ramoss, posted 03-16-2006 9:51 PM ramoss has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30980
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 244 of 300 (296105)
03-16-2006 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Buzsaw
03-16-2006 10:07 PM


Re: The Epistle of buz
Yup, you do keep saying that.

The thread is about evidence of God. Right? I'm saying ones who know him have evidence that unbelievers are not aware of and that unbelievers also have evidence which they reject, such as the prophecies.

That's fine buz. I know you believe that. But you see, I happen to be a believer and yet every single prophecy you have ever presented has not held up to examination. If you think you have something that might fly, start yet another thread on it. Who knows, maybe it will be supportable.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 10:07 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 10:43 PM jar has responded

iano
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 245 of 300 (296106)
03-16-2006 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
03-16-2006 8:58 PM


Re: robinrohan the true rationalist?
May your clear thinking be Christ's way of leading you to Him

As one who was were Robin is, I shiver at the sense of deja vu. There are direct parallels w.r.t 'getting it globally' whilst being permitted protection along the way by way of paper tigers, in this case "Evolution is proven by the fossil record" My own paper tigers turned out to be a red rag which was pulled away at the last moment resulting in me being run through with a truth sharper than any matadors double-edged sword.

And it didn't hurt a bit.

(Not to put any pressure on you RR but this on-the-inside-looking-at-someone-on-the-outside-going-'Ping' (notwithstanding the perfunctionary denials of God along the way) has me rivetted). That one about God foreknowing the fall but not necessarily being responsible for Adams chioce was a diamond nested in a bed of gemstones. PoE's abound...

Completely OT, but if one where to have a EvC get-together and Robin turned up, would anybody be surprised (going on that pencil sketch) if he actually resembled this gentleman...

http://www.discover.com/issues/sep-05/features/darwins-rottweiler/?page=1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 03-16-2006 8:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 03-17-2006 12:49 AM iano has responded

Hawkins
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 246 of 300 (296108)
03-16-2006 10:22 PM


I've already pointed out that if all those animals are made to be vegetarians. Human intelligence will notice the odds. Second, consider that there's a law of nature out there, which the fit will remain, it is an auto-balance system (ecology) cope with other scenarios lying within this law of nature, such as climates (stabilized and auto-balanced and long lasting in order for lives to live). If this auto-balanced ecological system contains only vegetarians, you may notice the odds that this is an *artificial* system instead of a *natural* system (all judged by the average intellence of humans, if we manage to be with a higher intelligence we may notice other odds to point out that our environment is still an *artificial* environment, for instance, the stabiliy relies too much on a undersea circulation system and some planets of our solar system).

Third, you are always left with choice (to believe or not), that's why it creates tons of scenarios which are *debatable but can never prove or disprove* (for the last thousand or perhaps the next couple thousand years), which itself is quite an *odd* to me.

This message has been edited by Hawkins, 03-16-2006 09:51 PM


Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 300 (296114)
03-16-2006 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by jar
03-16-2006 10:17 PM


Re: The Epistle of buz
Jar writes:

I happen to be a believer and yet every single prophecy you have ever presented has not held up to examination.

The scripture says the devils believe and tremble, so simply saying "I happen to be a believer" doesn't cut it. When you believe most of scripture is fairy tales why should the prophecies or anything else miraculous or supernatural hold up to your examination?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 10:17 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 10:48 PM Buzsaw has responded

AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 300 (296115)
03-16-2006 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Hawkins
03-16-2006 10:22 PM


Welcome Hawkins
Hi Hawkins. Welcome to EvC. We hope you will hang out here and enjoy the place.

This message has been edited by AdminBuzsaw, 03-16-2006 10:47 PM

This message has been edited by AdminBuzsaw, 03-16-2006 10:49 PM


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30980
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 249 of 300 (296116)
03-16-2006 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Buzsaw
03-16-2006 10:43 PM


wandering way OT again buz
The scripture says the devils believe and tremble, so simply saying "I happen to be a believer" doesn't cut it. When you believe most of scripture is fairy tales why should the prophecies or anything else miraculous or supernatural hold up to your examination?

buz, all you have to do is start a thread and present your best argument in support of your position. Feel free to do so. Who knows, perhaps you can support one? The Isaiah 7 thread is open again and maybe there you can show how it's possible that it is refering to Jesus without wilfully ignoring all that is written in Isaiah 7 except one line?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 10:43 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 10:58 PM jar has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 300 (296117)
03-16-2006 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
03-16-2006 10:48 PM


Re: wandering way OT again buz
Jar, your mind seems to be set, limited to the natural, so another prophecy thread would likely be a waste of time, so far as convincing you of anything you're she/it god does supernaturally.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 10:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 03-16-2006 11:09 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 30980
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 251 of 300 (296121)
03-16-2006 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Buzsaw
03-16-2006 10:58 PM


Re: wandering way OT again buz
Jar, your mind seems to be set, limited to the natural, so another prophecy thread would likely be a waste of time, so far as convincing you of anything you're she/it god does supernaturally.

I believe in GOD and what GOD can do and can see the evidence in things like Evolution and the wonders of what an amazing primate humans are. I certainly don't need fantasy or to ignore the evidence available or not use the brains GOD gave me.

I believe in miracles, I believe in GOD and the Supernatural. I don't though have to pretend or makeup evidence to do so.

As I have said, if you believe that you can support some prophecy as accurate, start a thread on it. You present your best argument, I'll put forward my best argument and we will let the readers make up their own minds.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 10:58 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31621
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 252 of 300 (296127)
03-17-2006 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by iano
03-16-2006 10:18 PM


Re: robinrohan the true rationalist?
You are writing over my head now, Iano. I'm not sure I'm following much of what you are saying.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by iano, posted 03-16-2006 10:18 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by iano, posted 03-17-2006 9:00 AM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15033
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 253 of 300 (296130)
03-17-2006 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
03-16-2006 8:58 PM


Re: robinrohan the true rationalist?
quote:

What a puzzle. A nihilist who believes in evolution has all the evos on his case while the Biblical fundamentalists are his fans (Iano
and me).

There's no puzzle at all. Robin Rohan, like you, has a closed mind and refuses to accept any possible reconciliation between Christianity and science, even though he cannot defend his position. Why should it be a puzzle that people clinging stubbornly to the same error should agree ? Thus the connection between your views is not rationality, but a shared irrationality.

Even worse for your case your position of placing your personal beliefs above sicnce is not rational and is not shared with Robin. Thus there is no basis for any claim that Biblical Fundamentalism is rational on the basis of this discussion - even without considering the internal irrationality of fundamentalism. That you should make such a claim is irrational in itself, and thus the very assertion is self-defeating.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 03-16-2006 8:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 03-17-2006 8:55 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 281 by robinrohan, posted 03-18-2006 1:05 AM PaulK has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15033
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 254 of 300 (296131)
03-17-2006 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Buzsaw
03-16-2006 10:07 PM


Re: The Epistle of buz
This thread is about evidence that DISPROVES God. According to Robin the evidence is good enough that a rational person should reject the idea that God exists. So really you should be arguing on the same side as Jar, that the evidence is NOT good enough.

This hread is not about evidence FOR God. Thus the claim to have such evidence is off-topic. And claiming to have evidence that you refuse to produce is against the forum rules anyway. Especially when you don't have such evidence - which is the case here. W


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Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3110
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 255 of 300 (296154)
03-17-2006 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Buzsaw
03-16-2006 10:58 PM


Re: wandering way OT again buz
That sword cuts both ways you know.

Can you show why that would refer to Jesus when looking at the phrase IN CONTEXT. So far, no one has been able to explain how that phrase in context with specifially Isiah 8:3-4 and Isaiah 8:18 would make that be Jesus.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Buzsaw, posted 03-16-2006 10:58 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

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