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Author
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Topic: Dear fellow christian, judge not lest you be judged
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
The rules are made by man. Did you expect them to be made by koala bears, then?
The prophecies TOTALLY destroy the intended "attempt" to stop their truth by introducing these silly rules. And therefore, the prophecies TOTALLY remove these silly rules, as they are true, and I have shown them to be true. So basically, "we already know they're true, so they don't need to be examined critically". It's astounding how even people who believe in the Bible's truth are afraid to let the Bible stand on its own merits.
Infact Dan, every single one is impressive, and true. Well then, these highly impressive prophecies should be plenty strong enough to stand up to a little critical reasoning, shouldn't they? So let's hop to it! Show us how incredibly impressive the prophecies of your God are! Leave no room for doubt! Just one prophecy that holds up to the standards listed in the other thread! Unless all the Bible provides by way of prophecies are vague, unfulfilled, out of context, uncorroborated, convoluted guesswork that only comes true becuase those who already believe in it are trying to make it happen. In which case, no, I guess they wouldn't match up to those standards. And maybe that sort of thing would impress you, but I gotta tell you, it leaves me less than stunned.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
Dan, Koala's have no opposable thumb, silly.
Unless all the Bible provides by way of prophecies are vague, unfulfilled, out of context, uncorroborated, convoluted guesswork that only comes true becuase those who already believe in it are trying to make it happen. In which case, no, I guess they wouldn't match up to those standards. And maybe that sort of thing would impress you, but I gotta tell you, it leaves me less than stunned. Dan, I think infact, the prophecies I have provided would even pass your test which is designed to stop them. But there is another reason why your rules cannot be allowed, atleast hear me out; If I say "wars and rumours of wars", and you say "too vague" - even though I understand what you mean, what if the prophecy really was true though? So, this is why we cannot establish truth through these rules. We cannot know how Christ chose to speak. He even spake in parables, which coincidentally, Isaiah said he would. So; Despite me even relating to what you are saying - These rules might even dismiss truth. For example, what if you established many a prophecy as vague, and missed the truth of them? Shall I provide 118 prophecies from Isaiah? Even Shraff has indirectly admitted the truth of them.
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
Dan, I think infact, the prophecies I have provided would even pass your test which is designed to stop them. Would this be, say, the one about stammering lips and tongue? Yeah, nothing convoluted there. Narrow it down for me, Mike. Show me one. And honestly, cut it with the whining about "designed to stop them". The rules are basic common sense. If the Bible is stopped by these rules, that speaks to a flaw in the Bible, not the rules.
But there is another reason why your rules cannot be allowed, atleast hear me out; If I say "wars and rumours of wars", and you say "too vague" - even though I understand what you mean, what if the prophecy really was true though? It is true, in the same way as Rei's prophecy about the sun rising. In which case the answer is "it's true... but who cares? My five year old neice could make that prophecy." Does it even count as a prophecy at that point? Well duh, no it doesn't. It counts as saying something really freakin' obvious. Or is Rei a divine prophet for knowing the sun will rise?
So; Despite me even relating to what you are saying - These rules might even dismiss truth. For example, what if you established many a prophecy as vague, and missed the truth of them? In the case of a prophecy such as this, nobody's dismissing the truth of saying, "there will be wars and rumors of war." We're just saying it's ridiculous to ascribe divinity to such a statement. Once again... in these cases the prophecies are not prophecies... they are simply statements of obivious fact.
Shall I provide 118 prophecies from Isaiah? Provide one that measures up.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 185 by Rei, posted 09-15-2004 4:24 PM | | Dan Carroll has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
Mike, how do you know that the writers of the NT, because they were promoting their messianic offshoot of Judaism, and because they weren't there to witness any of the events they were writing about, didn't simply have the OT open next to them while they wrote the Gospels? quote:
Because I believe in Christ, and he is truth.
However, the Bible was written by men, many of whom were not around when Christ was doing and saying what they wrote about. Also, the Bible has been copied and altered and translated many times. How do you know it hasn't been jazzed up a little along the way to make Christ more believable as the Messiah? Why do you reject what many Biblical scholars have known for decades or more?
quote:
It's more sensible that all the bible - completely holding together, and being acccurate in prophecy, is infact an impossible accomplishment for any liars. No-one promoting a lie could have foreseen the "bible" coming about in these ages, and lasting this long, and still being prophetically accurate.
Look, aren't we talking about OT prophecies being fulfilled in the NT? Why is it so "impossible" for the writers of the NT to have the OT open beside them while they wrote? They were in a dangerous political time, fighting for their very existence as a religion/sect of Judaism. Anything to make Jesus seem more authentic as the Messiah would have been useful.
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Rei
Member (Idle past 7040 days) Posts: 1546 From: Iowa City, IA Joined: 09-03-2003
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
quote:
It counts as saying something really freakin' obvious. Or is Rei a divine prophet for knowing the sun will rise?
Hey, don't discount the possibility of both. 
"Illuminant light, illuminate me."
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Message 186 of 241 (142597)
09-15-2004 6:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 184 by nator
09-15-2004 4:10 PM
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
Schraff, you obviously now think that someone sat down looking at the OT, even though there wasn't one at the time, and proceeded in writing the New Testament. This atleast suggests that despite your not admitting it, you do see the correlation between the prophecies of Christ in the OT and the events of Christ in the NT.
Look, aren't we talking about OT prophecies being fulfilled in the NT? Yes. But we have an OT and NT now - there wasn't any then. So, it would have been extremely hard for someone to go through the prophets, and find something to base the NT on that is completely consistent with a future bible. "Future bible"???? They'd have had to be a prophet to get it this right, and foresee a future bible.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 184 by nator, posted 09-15-2004 4:10 PM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
quote:
Schraff, you obviously now think that someone sat down looking at the OT, even though there wasn't one at the time,
There were no copies of the Torah?
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Message 188 of 241 (142603)
09-15-2004 7:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 187 by nator
09-15-2004 7:22 PM
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
That's just the five books of the law isn't it? Even if they concentrated on the Torah alone, there are prophecies in other books, Isaiah, Jeremiah etc.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 187 by nator, posted 09-15-2004 7:22 PM | | nator has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 189 by jar, posted 09-15-2004 7:39 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
Actually, the Jews broke it down into three sections, the Torah which is the Law, the Prophets and the Kethubim or writings. Together they made up the Tanach (or Tanak).
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Septuagint (LXX)
The Tanakh or Hebrew Bible (to differentiate from the Christian OT) was canonized during the second temple era.
Jewish Canon excerpt:
The Septuagint (LXX) translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, probably in the 1st and 2nd centuries BCE, provided a standard text for the non-Hebrew-speaking world. So the NT writers did have access to or were taught from the Hebrew Bible or the Septuagint. True, it wasn't called the "Old Testament" but the writings were available to them.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Message 191 of 241 (142758)
09-16-2004 2:38 PM
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I think we can now agree, and have established that these prophecies about Christ are accurate. Otherwise, why would you suggest that someone sat down with an OT in front of them and made it correlate? Infact, I still think that only the High priests and religious are allowed to read from the Jewish bible. I doubt they were handing out paper-backs in that time in history. Next you'll suggest they wrote the first NT book on a pc. So, you cannot just say "Oh - since you have shown how the bible prophecised Christ, mike - then they must have lied and made up the NT to fit the OT" - that's just speculation, but it is still highly improbable that they could have foreseen a future bible being accurate etc. So, they didn't even know there would be a lasting bible.
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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I think we can now agree, and have established that these prophecies about Christ are accurate. Until you address post 183, (and the larger issue of valid/impressive prophecies) that amounts to a big, "So what?" This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 09-16-2004 03:49 PM
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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dpardo
Inactive Member
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Message 193 of 241 (142806)
09-16-2004 5:45 PM
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jar writes: "Genesis 1 tells a different story than Genesis 2." Can you please elaborate on this statement.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 194 by jar, posted 09-16-2004 6:37 PM | | dpardo has not replied | | | Message 196 by 1.61803, posted 09-16-2004 6:52 PM | | dpardo has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 194 of 241 (142809)
09-16-2004 6:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 193 by dpardo
09-16-2004 5:45 PM
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It's been covdered in several threads and I feel another discussion on it here would be OT.
Here's a link to Bishop Sims' Pastoral Letter on the issue of Evolution vs creationism where he touches on the subject.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 193 by dpardo, posted 09-16-2004 5:45 PM | | dpardo has not replied |
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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But message 183 is more Dan banterisms. You missed my point. What if the rules make it so that truth is not seen? "Wars and rumours of wars" you might say - according to your rules, "not a valid prophecy" but even if the rule makes it invalid, it might still be true! Therefore, man's wisdom is limited, he cannot know! Nevertheless, if he believes, his source of knowledge changes, and he that does know - does tell.
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