Spiritual Warfare Fight Thread...

Think about it, though. The Jewish religion was formed in a culture through a long amount of time. The Christian religion, in contrast, was formed virtually instantly after the death(burial and resurrection) of its leader. Had the leader been just another "failed Messiah" the movement logically should have died off.Thats my basic argument.

That's a totally different argument. The first was 'it's old so it's true'This new one is just as daft - 'It was created quickly so it's true.'I offer you Mormonism or Scientology if you just need fast.These are all just poor rationalisations of your favourite belief - a belief you wouldn't even know existed if you'd been born in a village in the Atlas mountains instead of Denver, USA (or wherever). A pure fluke of birth.

Maybe you have a point. Is it really that hard for people to accept Jesus, though?Even if we only accepted the dogmatic concept of a man which has not been proven to exist.A man who is the character representation of God.Thus...it boils down to accepting God or nah.Critics may argue as to what good it will do.And to be fair, I should also consider accepting that He does not exist, in order that we (you and I) have common ground.I resolve in 2015 to try and understand atheism better. In addition, I resolve to be more patient in our forum discussions---even if what is said goes aginst my beliefs.

Apparently it's not hard at all if you indoctrinate children early enough, then keep them out of education for as long as possible. But you're making the usual mistake of assuming that your belief is self evidently true when some of us think it utterly daft. I can't think of a single reason why I would want to "accept Jesus" the entire concept is bogus. You need to get your head round that first. You want me to accept Jesus even though he never existed? That's bizarre even for you. It would be a start Fair enough, but you could start by just thinking a bit about how what you type could be/has already been criticised before you post it.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

The problem there Phat is what you assert is just not true. Christianity was just another Jewish sect for hundreds of years and it developed over the centuries just like any religion does. It pretty much did die out and became pretty insignificant until it was adopted as a State Religion and imposed by force and coercion.The way it survived the "Failed Messiah" challenge was to change the meaning on messiah beyond all recognition. But even under the NewSpeak Christian definition of messiah Jesus is still a failed messiah.

What you think doesn't matter.
Read this
Not the Impossible Faith
A scholarly take down of all those types of arguments.Oh that's right you won't consider anything that threatens your worldview.

And that argument has been disproven and shown to be bullshit.

I told everyone that one of my New Years Resolutions was to understand world views that disagreed with my own. So far, you three have started to challenge me in several areas. So you are telling me that Christianity was statistically insignificant until Constantine had his vision? Duly noted. So to Jews, Jesus has no meaning? Tangle states that Jesus has no meaning to him,also.And by the way, Theodoric...I have Richard Carriers book on my list. I will at least read it.

I'm saying more than that, I'm asking you why anyone should find any meaning in him if they're not already a believer. Any objective reading of the NT expose Jesus as just another mythological character speaking well-meaning platitudes whilst doing unbelievable magical things - of which there have been many.If you look deeper and examine the historicity of Jesus and compare what is known factually to what is belived, it all becomes a very obvious nonsense.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

I think you're shooting yourself in the foot. "The church" clearly was invented by Paul. The only question is whether there was any basis to his belief or whether he made it all up out of whole cloth. Indeed there are many "Yacht Clubs" that have more to do with social activity than yachting.

It's more than that even. Christianity might well have died out throughout most of its history had it not been for the continued political, economic benefits and coercion inherent in a State religion. Christianity was spread by force; first by Rome, later by western European monarchs and then by colonialists to Asia and the new world. Not quite. Jesus is recognized as a prophet by both Islam and Judaism.Remember that the test of a messiah is what the person did. What someone may do or will do is irrelevant as a test of whether someone is a messiah. While I might believe that Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead and that Hid kingdom will have no end (sound familiar to you? ) the reality is that that is simply and acknowledgement that Jesus is so far a failed messiah.It was not so much the Gospel that spread Christianity but rather the consequences for not adopting Christianity.Look at US history and list the number of openly atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu have been elected to office?Ask yourself if the coercion continues today?

Christianity might well have died out had Christ not been raised from the dead. The sad reality is that it was spread by the wrong type of force. In this I agree with you. We Christians today must take responsibility for the errors of our forefathers.I do not agree that the message is to simply try and do our best. While this is a noble and necessary daily charge, it is not the totality of the message. If Jesus were simply a myth told around future campfires, you would have a point. I challenge your assertion that Jesus was a failed Messiah. This is a valid point. Perhaps the Franchise needs to reevaluate the product that is being sold.Edited by Phat, : added

Then provide evidence of what Jesus did that would make Jesus a messiah?Did he create and head a Jewish State?Did he conquer all and end war?Inquiring minds want to know.

Originally, Jesus own commission was only for the Jews. It is true that the author of John expanded this into "whosoever believes"...and it is also true that once Saul got knocked off his High Horse for killing Jews that he became zealous for a new direction and intention. Our question asks whether Paul was acting out of greedy or selfish motives---seeking to replace the original religion rather than completing it---or not. Some say that revisionism is completion of the original religion and that God foreknew His people would reject Him.The evidence is inconclusive overall. A case can be made many ways.One could argue--as you do--that Jesus was a good teacher and nothing more. His life could be an example. His death irrelevant and unproven(resurrection included). One could also argue that In other words, Paul argues that belief in Jesus(as alive and empowering all through the Holy Spirit) is crucial. Others may argue--as you have done, jar---that it is what we do that counts and that our responsibility is to live as Jesus lived---even if He were but a story and/or mythos. Yes and No.Wars still exist in the physical realm. It is the responsibility of humanity to try and do our best to eventually eliminate them. Some argue that we never will meet this goal and that holding on to Jesus as blessed hope and rescuer of humanity is not a foolish prospect as long as it doesn't cause us to let go of our responsibility.

Answer the question. The questions were:Then provide evidence of what Jesus did that would make Jesus a messiah?Did he create and head a Jewish State?Did he conquer all and end war?Your response of "Originally, Jesus own commission was only for the Jews. " has nothing to do with the question and unfortunately simply shows that you cannot or will not actually read the Bible.Not only did you try to palm the pea but you also quote mined one small part of a chapter but did not bother to finish reading. This is classic CCoI behavior, find only the pieces parts that support their position and ignore all the parts that refute it.Here is the rest of the section, the stuff you left out:

quote:

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Matt 15

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22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

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23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

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24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

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25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

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26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

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27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

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28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

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So your very own source says that Jesus went beyond just the Jews.Nor does any of that have any relation to what the Great Commission charges us to do.So back to the questions. The Jewish Messiah would set up and rule a Jewish State, end war and rule the whole world.Did Jesus so that?Edited by jar, : appalin spallin