Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Religion is for men
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 16 of 77 (384167)
02-10-2007 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by One_Charred_Wing
02-09-2007 10:48 PM


Re: IQ Tests and relevance to leadership
i think what you're missing here is that IQ tests are not meant to have anything to do with leadership capacity. they are meant to put a quantitative score on the potential for abstract reasoning, which we think means especially smart in this culture. leadership has dick all to do with abstract and a great deal to do with practical skills. i'm near genius, but that doesn't make me a good leader. i'm built for other things. in fact, i'm almost completely useless in the "normal" world. however, as an academic, i am invaluable. this means that my IQ tests are more or less accurate in that they have shown that i am built for advanced abstract thought. i will never be a general. i will most likely never be president.
i'm sorry to be off topic, but it is so irritating when people take IQ tests out of context, and it's generally because they're pissy that they didn't score higher. it doesn't mean anything in "real life". it's not supposed to.
and now back on topic. we see religion as being very male centric, because our culture is male centric. why hasn't a woman been pope? because there is a tradition that men won't follow women. they think women are irrational, emotional, and untrustworthy. this has become institutionalized into the build of the church as it has in most of society. even women who have played larger roles in history and the church have been recorded as having smaller roles. there are many women barely mentioned in the new testament who were instrumental in the early church. but they are not remembered as more than sidenotes. i'm quite certain that as many women wrote letters and books as did men... theirs were simply not preserved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 02-09-2007 10:48 PM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by anastasia, posted 02-10-2007 6:20 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 24 of 77 (384277)
02-10-2007 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by anastasia
02-10-2007 6:20 PM


Re: IQ Tests and relevance to leadership
Anybody in mind?
not really. just generally works out that way.
Not true of the Church. They don't think anything, except that Jesus is God and He chose a man for a Pope. This is the only 'tradition' which they are allowed to go by.
i don't actually recall jesus choosing a pope. and the reason there is no woman pope is because women can't preach. because paul said they should not be allowed to usurp the authority that god had clearly given the penis owning members of humanity. if they can't preach, they can't be priests. if they can't be priests, they can't be promoted to higher church offices. they can only be perfume carrying servants who anoint the body of christ (serve the physical and emotional needs of the church, rather than the intellectual or spiritual needs). however, judges speaks of the prophetess deborah. paul even talks about his friend's four prophesying daughters. if women can be chosen by god as prophets, why can't they be chosen my man to be leaders? because mankind is flawed and men have decided that they refuse to be led by women. why is it that people think the church is immune to the problems of humanity? just because we know we should not, does not mean we will not. there was no blue lightning to stop luther from spreading anti-semitism and there is none to keep church men from subjugating women.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by anastasia, posted 02-10-2007 6:20 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by anastasia, posted 02-10-2007 8:01 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 28 of 77 (384302)
02-10-2007 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by anastasia
02-10-2007 8:01 PM


Re: IQ Tests and relevance to leadership
i'm saying that there is no other scriptural evidence that there is any such authority given to penis bearing members of humanity. i am not necessarily built to lead, but to say that all women are built the same and none are gifted by god to lead men is ridiculous. adam didn't ask god why he wasn't given a maid like all the other animals, he asked why he wasn't given a companion. a companion is inherently equal. not all men can lead; not all women can lead. but some of each can, and who is paul to contradict the clear gifts of god?
Or you have not heard 'thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church'?
and yet the church follows the dictions of paul.
also, i really don't recall any mention of a church hierarchy. sure, jesus had 12 who were his subleaders, but they were not to become mini-jesuses after he left. jesus is our mediator and our lord. who is this pope guy anyways?
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by anastasia, posted 02-10-2007 8:01 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by anastasia, posted 02-10-2007 10:20 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 41 of 77 (384347)
02-11-2007 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by anastasia
02-10-2007 10:20 PM


Re: Eve the Leader
Judges 4
4 Deborah, the wife of Lappidoth, was a prophet who had become a judge in Israel. 5 She would hold court under the Palm of Deborah, which stood between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to settle their disputes. 6 One day she sent for Barak son of Abinoam, who lived in Kedesh in the land of Naphtali. She said to him, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: Assemble ten thousand warriors from the tribes of Naphtali and Zebulun at Mount Tabor. 7 I will lure Sisera, commander of Jabin's army, along with his chariots and warriors, to the Kishon River. There I will give you victory over him."
8 Barak told her, "I will go, but only if you go with me!"
9 "Very well," she replied, "I will go with you. But since you have made this choice, you will receive no honor. For the Lord's victory over Sisera will be at the hands of a woman." So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh. 10 At Kedesh, Barak called together the tribes of Zebulun and Naphtali, and ten thousand warriors marched up with him. Deborah also marched with them.
it keeps going. i cut.
Acts 21
8 Then we went on to Caesarea and stayed at the home of Philip the Evangelist, one of the seven men who had been chosen to distribute food. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who had the gift of prophecy.
now prophesy is nt necessarily leadership, but it's no small matter.
should i quote the whole book of esther?
Esther 7
So the king and Haman went to Queen Esther's banquet. 2 And while they were drinking wine that day, the king again asked her, "Tell me what you want, Queen Esther. What is your request? I will give it to you, even if it is half the kingdom!"
3 And so Queen Esther replied, "If Your Majesty is pleased with me and wants to grant my request, my petition is that my life and the lives of my people will be spared. 4 For my people and I have been sold to those who would kill, slaughter, and annihilate us. If we had only been sold as slaves, I could remain quiet, for that would have been a matter too trivial to warrant disturbing the king."
5 "Who would do such a thing?" King Xerxes demanded. "Who would dare touch you?"
6 Esther replied, "This wicked Haman is our enemy." Haman grew pale with fright before the king and queen. 7 Then the king jumped to his feet in a rage and went out into the palace garden.
miriam was a prophetess and helped moses and aaron lead the people into the promised land.
2 Kings 22
14 So Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Acbor, Shaphan, and Asaiah went to the newer Mishneh section* of Jerusalem to consult with the prophet Huldah. She was the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah and grandson of Harhas, the keeper of the Temple wardrobe. 15 She said to them, "The Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken! Go and tell the man who sent you, 16 `This is what the Lord says: I will destroy this city and its people, just as I stated in the scroll you read. 17 For my people have abandoned me and worshiped pagan gods, and I am very angry with them for everything they have done. My anger is burning against this place, and it will not be quenched.'
18 "But go to the king of Judah who sent you to seek the Lord and tell him: `This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says concerning the message you have just heard: 19 You were sorry and humbled yourself before the Lord when you heard what I said against this city and its people, that this land would be cursed and become desolate. You tore your clothing in despair and wept before me in repentance. So I have indeed heard you, says the Lord. 20 I will not send the promised disaster against this city until after you have died and been buried in peace. You will not see the disaster I am going to bring on this place.' " So they took her message back to the king.
huldah the prophetess verified the book of deuteronomy as being the word of god. (see also 2 chronicals 34)
Acts 9
36 There was a believer in Joppa named Tabitha (which in Greek is Dorcas*). She was always doing kind things for others and helping the poor. 37 About this time she became ill and died. Her friends prepared her for burial and laid her in an upstairs room. 38 But they had heard that Peter was nearby at Lydda, so they sent two men to beg him, "Please come as soon as possible!"
39 So Peter returned with them; and as soon as he arrived, they took him to the upstairs room. The room was filled with widows who were weeping and showing him the coats and other garments Dorcas had made for them. 40 But Peter asked them all to leave the room; then he knelt and prayed. Turning to the body he said, "Get up, Tabitha." And she opened her eyes! When she saw Peter, she sat up! 41 He gave her his hand and helped her up. Then he called in the widows and all the believers, and he showed them that she was alive.
dorcas is called a disciple. this is no simple term.
Philipians 4
2 And now I want to plead with those two women, Euodia and Syntyche. Please, because you belong to the Lord, settle your disagreement. 3 And I ask you, my true teammate,* to help these women, for they worked hard with me in telling others the Good News. And they worked with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are written in the Book of Life.
two women evangelists. apparently having a disagreement, as humans do. but impotant church leaders nonetheless.
Romans 16
Our sister Phoebe, a deacon in the church in Cenchrea, will be coming to see you soon. 2 Receive her in the Lord, as one who is worthy of high honor. Help her in every way you can, for she has helped many in their needs, including me.
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila. They have been co-workers in my ministry for Christ Jesus. 4 In fact, they risked their lives for me. I am not the only one who is thankful to them; so are all the Gentile churches. 5 Please give my greetings to the church that meets in their home.
Greet my dear friend Epenetus. He was the very first person to become a Christian in the province of Asia. 6 Give my greetings to Mary, who has worked so hard for your benefit. 7 Then there are Andronicus and Junia,* my relatives,* who were in prison with me. They are respected among the apostles and became Christians before I did. Please give them my greetings. 8 Say hello to Ampliatus, whom I love as one of the Lord's own children, 9 and Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and beloved Stachys.
phoebe is the only deacon mentioned by name in the bible. also, where it says co-worker for pricilla? the word means colleague. that junia? that's a lady. the church father's spoke of her as a woman until 1000 ad when they supressed the truth of her gender as she is referred to as an apostle. some versions of the bible have even out of nowhere invented an 's' for the end of her name to turn her into a man.
and those are just the ones that we know for sure. who knows what we would know about women in the church if church leaders had not quashed the idea of women in leadership roles and potentially even removed them from the text. i don't know whether mary magdalene was a leader among the deciples, but she was a powerful business woman and not the prostitute with whom the church has conflated her story. what cause would they have to perpetuate such lies but to reduce the importance and visibility of women in the eyes of the lord and in the work of the early church? you even have been so blinded by this as to suggest that no woman has ever been in a leadership role in the bible. that's simply bogus. has it ever occurred to you that the rarity of women was due to the refusal of the scribes to record their deeds rather than the idea that they stayed at home and baked mana cookies?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by anastasia, posted 02-10-2007 10:20 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by anastasia, posted 02-11-2007 1:19 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 43 of 77 (384426)
02-11-2007 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by anastasia
02-11-2007 1:19 PM


Re: Eve the Leader
Junia, btw, is almost positively male. Paul refers to 'her' as a kinsmen and a fellow prisoner.
ouyyevns (suggenes)
1) of the same kin, akin to, related by blood
2) in a wider sense, of the same nation, a fellow countryman
in no way does this word mean male relatives only.
further, the greek says 'iounian' not 'iounias' as junias (the male name) would be (and as some concordances insert, but is not in the greek text). what about being related to paul and a prisoner means junia has to be male?
“Greet Andronicus and Junia . . . who are outstanding among the apostles” (Romans 16:7): To be an apostle is something great. But to be outstanding among the apostles”just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle.
John Chrysostom (344/54-407)
The earliest commentator on Romans 16:7, Origen of Alexandria (e. 185-253/54), took the name to be feminine (Junta or Julia, which is a textual variant),(4) as did Jerome (340/50-419/20),(5) Hatto of Vercelli (924-961),(6) Theophylact (c.1050-c.1108),(70 and Peter Abelard (1079-1142).
you say junia is positively male, because to be an apostle, you think she must be. i argue that there needs to be more evidence.
and the leaders of the church are well aware of the other women in scripture.
i'm not trying to talk to the leaders in the church. i'm sure the rcc knows full well a lot more than is even available to most scholars. i'm talking to you, and you do not seem to be aware of the truth of women in the early church. but then it occurs to me and may not to you that someone might be able to change the bible to remove women from it, as they changed it to remove nose rings.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by anastasia, posted 02-11-2007 1:19 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by anastasia, posted 02-11-2007 5:26 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 45 of 77 (384473)
02-11-2007 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by anastasia
02-11-2007 5:26 PM


Re: Eve the Leader
But again, just calling her an apostle does not make her the same as an elected leader. Again, Paul is not even considered to be a priest, a pope, a bishop, a deacon, or a cardinal, or anything except a prophet and apostle.
but if she was a woman and an apostle, then she was very clearly a church leader and perhaps there are other unmentioned women who were elected church officials.
i suppose the difference here is that i have very little faith in the church as an institution and much more faith in a man who seemed to treat women equally.
women were not present at the Last Supper.
we don't have a list of who was at the last supper. the bible refers to jesus and his disciples. however, it was most likely a seder meal which is a family tradition. so these men would have been with their families and friends and most likely there were more than 13 people in the room. there is no evidence in either direction and it is foolish for you to purport such.
The point is, no one knows for sure.
precisely, and yet you claim that i must be wrong even though more recent retranslations and the presentation of the greek as best i can tell do not support a male.
Early church fathers were reading the Bible as it was presented to them. You are taking their reading as accurate, without concern about possible changes. Further in your post, you are very concerned with possible changes
what i am concerned with is that church leaders can't seem to decide on the gender of a person. that the role and abilities of women are assumed and decided by this question, i think it is a very important issue. you said three posts ago that no woman was presented in a leadership role in the bible. that is clearly not the case, especially if junia is a woman. you didn't and i didn't claim elected office and now you are quibbling over elected office. before, you were talking about appointment by jesus. you can't decide what parameters you will be pleased by as making a woman worthy of her placement and you use this to distort the argument. i am concerned that three or four marys and a martha and a few other women were instrumental to the ministry of jesus and yet they're not good enough to lead because they weren't one of these twelve doubtful, untrusting, bickering men.
i am concerned that we have allowed the flawed nature of man with the insistance to quibble over differences to prevent god-loving women from exercising the call of god. paul was never elected to office as you recognize, and yet half of the new testament is his otherwise mad ravings, except his contemporaries decided that he was indeed called by god to lead and that his words and input were important enough to be preserved. are people now not capable of testing the spirits and determining whether a woman is truly called of god? what makes her so very different that because she cannot spew forth semen that she cannot speak of the loving light?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by anastasia, posted 02-11-2007 5:26 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by anastasia, posted 02-11-2007 7:18 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 47 of 77 (384546)
02-12-2007 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by anastasia
02-11-2007 7:18 PM


Re: Eve the Leader
Leading is serving, and serving is leading.
but only if they are leading and serving under men.
that's such a crap excuse for telling women to shuttup and know their role.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by anastasia, posted 02-11-2007 7:18 PM anastasia has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 75 of 77 (386014)
02-19-2007 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by anastasia
02-14-2007 7:40 PM


Re: Eve the Leader
So, I would say Religion is not 'for men' but that certain functions have been overseen by men traditionally, which correspond to the roles given men in society.
it is my assertion, thus, that it is those traditional roles in society that have put men into similar roles in the church, and not real divine intention.
this is unfortunately unprovable as the church kind of controls all the potential information on this and they're certainly not budging.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by anastasia, posted 02-14-2007 7:40 PM anastasia has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 76 of 77 (386015)
02-19-2007 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Jon
02-15-2007 12:26 AM


off-topic point on assumptions.
i think randman still thinks i'm a gay man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Jon, posted 02-15-2007 12:26 AM Jon has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 77 of 77 (386016)
02-19-2007 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Archer Opteryx
02-18-2007 11:54 AM


Re: the 'transformational' leadership style
women tend to be pretty well trained by society in peace-keeping and compromise, not to mention solving fights between whiny little brats. i think that women could do a lot for politics, in the light of that. however, it is training and not nature, and we are just as corruptible as men.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-18-2007 11:54 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024