Organized Religion & personal Spirituality

Troy writes Phatboy:

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You haven't answered my question.

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Huh? It sure looked to me like he did. Your question was: to which Phatboy responded:

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Does this mean that we should legislate morality?

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but Phatboy had already made the Bradism: I don't mean to come down on you, Lam, but you seem to be looking for something I don't think Phatboy intended.

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Phatboy writes me:

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What do you think of all of this, berberry?

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I think you like to preach but you make an honest effort to avoid passing judgement. That's why I can get along with you even through all of our differences. I have a few friends who are like you, and they're among my favorite people. I am much more sensitive to Christians when they behave the way you behave than when they behave like buz or Faith.This doesn't mean that I think you're fair on each and every issue, only that you try to be. You still have a ways to go, I think, but so long as your mind remains open to opposing opinions I can't fault you too harshly.

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Since this thread is a spin-off of the pope thread, and since the corpse is now safely in the ground, I'd like to draw the attention of anyone interested to Michael Musto's column about JP2 in The Village Voice.Musto makes the obvious comparison between the lionization of the pope and the lionization of Ronald Reagan last year. His criticism of the pope is dead on, and he makes a number of points that hadn't yet been made on this forum.There is the old tradition, which I had always honored, of not offering harsh criticism of a man or woman during the period when their families and friends are mourning their death. I didn't observe it as closely this time, as you'll note if you read the earlier pope thread. Time was when the death of an important world leader would draw polite but at least somewhat muted praise from followers and detractors of the deceased. But in the age of 24-hour cable news that has changed into uninterrupted adulation bordering on deification, and a concomitant demonization of anyone who dares to offer an opposing opinion. Perhaps the 24-hour news channels are not the fault of Reagan or JP2, but if this sort of unrealistic praise is to be a feature of the mourning period of all deceased world leaders in future, then the old custom has become quaint and it's time to set it aside.

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StormWolfx2x writes:

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...once you step out off crimes that have a victim, then its a lot harder for the people of a large diverse population to reach a consensus.

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If a "crime" has no victim, then why regard it as a crime?

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Phatboy quizzes me:

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OK..take as an example speeding 100 mph at midnite with few cars on the highway. Crime or no crime?

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Crime. There is a high potential for victims.

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Stealing from a dead person who had no heirs. Crime or no crime?

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If he had no heirs, then the state will inherit any possessions. That would be theft from the state, so there is a victim. Crime.

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Casual sex, followed by more anonymous partners....followed by unknown numbers of kids...Hey..no Dad no crime, right?

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I don't know about crime, but it'd certainly be wrong. If you're having kids with no regard for feeding and caring for them, then there most definitely are victims. I don't see promiscuity in and of itself to be a crime.

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holmes writes me:

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For instance in the examples PB gave you, I certainly did not see the speeder as a crime given a lonely highway.

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I was responding to a statement about how difficult it is to get everyone to agree that something is a crime when there are no victims. I was only saying "why bother?" If you can't show that a particular activity is likely to create a victim or victims, then why should that activity be made illegal, or criminalized?I agree that it can be difficult in some cases to ascertain whether or not there has been a vicitim. But let's look at the highway example. If the highway Phatboy spoke of had no speed limit to begin with, and no one ever got hurt or killed on it even though people regularly drive that road at 100mph or so, then it would be hard to show a need for any speed limit. But if that road with no speed limit is the scene of regular, deadly accidents, then a potential for victims could be shown and it would be necessary to do something to protect those victims. If you can come up with something better than a speed limit to deal with the problem then great, let's have a look. Otherwise, we're stuck with imposing a speed limit. Once we've done that, the limit has to be enforced or else it will be ignored and we'll be right back where we started with a bloody highway where people are being regularly victimized.

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holmes writes me:

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Its like we've created an emotional pressure cooker and its warping society's usual coping mechanisms.

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Your metaphor isn't quite perfect since pressure cookers don't always warp things, but the point is taken. That's an excellent way of putting it. I agree that the non-stop coverage and adulation of the pope, like the coverage of Reagan last year, is very much like a pressure cooker, only one with a clogged escape valve.

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If you break the speed limit and there is no one around, is it really a crime?

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Reminds me of the question "if a man says something in a forest, but no woman is around to hear him, is he still wrong?"

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Nitpicking... I think you meant to say prevent people from becoming victims, not protect the victims. The latter is usually about victims rights.

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Yes, that's what I meant. Thank you.

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