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Author Topic:   We didn't pray
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4081 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 32 of 126 (293560)
03-09-2006 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by sidelined
03-08-2006 11:19 AM


What are the criteria for considering a prayer answered other than personal post hoc assumption?
I think perhaps it is a more likely scenario that humans fool tthemselves into believing that prayer was answered or not based on a mindset that allows for either outcome to be acceptable without refuting the basic premise.
Actually, I think asking the criteria for answered prayer or for God's existence is a lot like asking what the criteria are for proof in a civil case (so that "beyond a shadow of doubt" doesn't apply as in a criminal case) as to whether a crime was committed. It depends on the crime, circumstances, etc., and the evidence presented could vary greatly. What would constitute "proof" would vary from person to person.
Recently an 80-year-old woman who lives here in the village had to get her shoulder operated on, because a break in the humurus (sp?) wasn't healing right. It was causing her some pain. I prayed for her, but not very diligently, and when she went in, she had a bladder infection and the surgery was postponed. I really felt like I hadn't prayed as I ought, and now she had another week of shoulder discomfort to face, and so during that week I prayed properly and got others to pray with me. I prayed that the surgery and recovery would go as smoothly as possible.
Surgery went great. That evening she had a stroke. The next morning I heard the stroke was severe and the doctor's were fearing she'd not recover.
I was crushed. In fact, I was pretty angry. I walked around outside and asked God what was going on and why this would happen. I was pretty downcast when I went in. It's not that I expect everything I ask for, or we ask for, to happen, but I guess I did expect to have some feeling, in advance, that what I was asking for wouldn't happen.
That evening, I heard that she had unexpectedly woke up, and that she recognized people, answered questions with nods, and had feeling everywhere. No paralysis.
She got rapidly better, and though she's still in the hospital, they expect a full recovery.
All of that I consider proof of nothing. I learned some things from it, because I already believed, but there's no conclusions that can be drawn from such anecdotes.
On the other hand, about 20 years ago my sister wrote me to tell me that her 2-year-old son was blind in one eye from an infection and that the other eye was not starting to lose its sight from the same infection. This infection had been going on a year, and it was the reason she had moved to Andrews AFB near a big medical center, whose name I forget. I knew she had moved, but she hadn't told me about the infection or that the AF had moved her for the medical problem.
She said the doctors didn't know what to do, and could we pray. I prayed with two friends, and I felt like our prayers were heard, but we couldn't quite "get all the way through." It was a weird feeling, really.
I was in Germany, and it took a week for her mail to reach us. Two weeks after our prayer, she wrote to say my nephew had 100% of his sight back in both eyes, and that the infection was almost gone, but not all the way.
That probably proves nothing to skeptics, but it was a massive faith builder to me, and I am quite convinced that my nephew's eyes were healed in answer to our prayers by the hand of God.
One more.
In India, this January, we went to visit a "Mercy Home," where up to ten orphaned or half-orphaned children are raised in a household with one couple. We arrived, and there was an additional girl, 8 years old, that was there that Pastor Daniel, whom we were traveling with, hadn't expected. He was immediately told why the girl was there.
It appears that in early December he had visited the same Mercy Home and the child had been brought to him to be prayed for. She had cancer of the stomach, and the doctors were ready to give up, and so they were there to ask for prayer. He didn't know what they were there for, and they didn't catch him until he was on the way out, in somewhat of a hurry. So he didn't ask why the child was brought to him. He simply picked her up and prayed, "God, give them whatever they're asking for." Then he pressed on.
They brought the child to the Mercy Home while we were visiting so they could report to him that the child was completely healed. They were very excited.
I've heard reports like that before, but always from a friend of someone's cousin, twice-removed. You know the stories. I've heard plenty of them. There was nothing about this story that seemed made up, though. I obviously believe in miracles from God, thinking I've experienced many, but I'm a skeptic when others tell me about them, because I've been a part of the charismatic movement and left because I got tired of made up stories about miracles.
Anyway, my point is that I don't think there are hard and fast rules about what constitutes answered prayer. Everyone is different and every situation is different and must be judged accordingly, just like every court case is judged on its own particular evidence. Each witness is assigned a certain level of credibility by each individual that hears that witness. That's just how things are.
I'm a believer, and while I'm as human and biased and prone to looking for patterns based on the evolutionary development of the human brain as everyone else, I think that once you get enough cases like the above, you have to wonder if there is something more than chance and coincidence going on around us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by sidelined, posted 03-08-2006 11:19 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by sidelined, posted 03-09-2006 10:08 AM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4081 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 35 of 126 (293596)
03-09-2006 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by sidelined
03-09-2006 10:08 AM


Now can you list the number of times that you prayed and it did not result in a favourable outcome?
Sure. It's never happened.
No, I'm just kidding. I haven't kept track on either side. Of course, when the situation is your nephew going blind, you can never forget, so that's marked down in my memory permanently.
I know that we had a sister here die of some mysterious malady a few years ago. The hospital told us that it was a blood infection, and they couldn't tell us anything else. (We think it was undiagnosed appendicitis, so to the end they didn't want to tell us they missed it and her appendix burst.) She was sent home by the emergency room on Saturday as just having a virus or even just gas, and then we went back in on Thursday when it became clear she wasn't getting better. It took till Saturday morning for her to die, and obviously we prayed for 36 hours, although some time in the midst of that we felt that God was taking her home, so we stopped praying for her recovery.
Whether that was an unfavorable outcome depends on your point of view. However, we've definitely prayed for children that we felt were in the hands of parents that qualified as abusive and things just continued unchanged. And we've certainly prayed for people to repent who did not.
Maybe a neat example of someone who did keep careful track was Amy Carmichael, a missionary to India, whose Dohnavur Fellowship we were able to see on this India trip. She spent her life rescuing young girls from a life of temple prostitution and abuse. She prayed her way through court battles and whatever else she had to face to rescue girls in a strongly patriarchal society in early 20th century, British-owned India, and she describes the incredible agony of the losses they faced.
Jonathon Goforth was a missionary to China who had four of his nine children die in early childhood to disease while living over there. Amy Carmichael desribes children lost to fever and other maladies.
Amy Carmichael documented her stories so well that one could probably collect statistics on rescues vs. non-rescues, answered prayer to financial requests, and children who got well vs. those who didn't.
Exact statistics may not be necessary, though. Enough amazing coincidences can add up to pretty convincing evidence of some sort of unexplained intervention even if there's repeated occurrences of no change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by sidelined, posted 03-09-2006 10:08 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by sidelined, posted 03-09-2006 12:43 PM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4081 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 42 of 126 (293746)
03-09-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by sidelined
03-09-2006 12:43 PM


The reason I was inquiring is that it is a error that occurs in human thinking in which we count the hits and ignore the misses.
Yes, I knew what you were saying. I've heard that before. It's a valid point left alone by itself, but there are situations where even if this is true, it's irrelevant.
If a person, who regularly traveled from Nashville to Memphis, one day drove the 200 miles in half an hour, driving the same speed he always did, and doesn't remember passing Jackson on the way, then all the times he drove it in 3 hours are irrelevant. He does not need to remember or count them (except for IRS purposes). Something happened that is worth investigating.
There comes a point where enough has happened in answer to prayer that there's something to wonder about, no matter how many prayers weren't answered. Where that line is and what sort of answers it would take to cross that line may vary from person to person, but if there are enough valid "hits" of sufficient unlikeliness, then the misses don't have to be counted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by sidelined, posted 03-09-2006 12:43 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by mike the wiz, posted 03-10-2006 8:36 AM truthlover has not replied
 Message 66 by nator, posted 03-11-2006 3:48 PM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4081 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 73 of 126 (294858)
03-13-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by nator
03-11-2006 3:48 PM


Unless you know the total number of "trials", though, you don't have any way to calculate if the number of "hits" are greater or lesser than chance would predict.
100 positive his out of 120 trials is different than 100 hits out of 200 million trials.
Well, number one, you can always calculate a maximum # of trials for any life. One person can only pray so many prayers.
Number two, and possibly as a result of number one, there comes a point where calculating percentages becomes irrelevant. I watched a guy once step on a very large needle and rub it around on the floor. He then pushed the pin through his bicep and pull it out the other side. The wound healed in front of our eyes in about thirty seconds.
Percentages of hits to misses are irrelevant here. Something other than normal was happening. Someone could investigate to see whether it was a magic trick (illusion), whether the guy had an amazing immune system, or some other situation I can't think of, but it certainly wasn't a normal occurrence, even if that's the only time it happened.
My point, from the beginning, has been that many situations are complicated enough to warrant investigation, and that there's no simple formula for how to investigate such things. There was a faith healer who wrote a book with a number of amazing healings described. If those had all happened, it wouldn't have mattered if this woman hadn't healed anyone else, it would have been proof of some sort of power, whether that power was natural of supernatural.
Someone else investigated her, though, and found the stories impossible to validate, except for three of them (out of 72 total he looked into). So the answer was pretty simple. The things she described didn't all happen.
I'm not saying that "hits" vs. "misses" is an invalid thing to look at. Admittedly, if everyone in California prayed to win the lottery, hits vs. misses would matter when a person claimed to win the lottery by prayer. I'm just saying it's not a universal answer, and I didn't think it was very applicable to the things I described earlier in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by nator, posted 03-11-2006 3:48 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by nator, posted 03-13-2006 11:02 AM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4081 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 81 of 126 (294937)
03-13-2006 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by nator
03-13-2006 11:02 AM


Re: "enough" is the key word here
Schraf,
I don't know that you really disagree with me on this, and if you do, I really don't understand why.
My responses that follow are building to make one point only.
Well, yes, I'm not saying it was a "normal" occurence. But if you are trying to tell me that this was some kind of supernatural occurence, there is a LOT more in the way of controls and testing I would want to put the guy through before I bought that something other than a freakshow act was going on.
Right and those controls and testing would vary depending on the claim.
I watched a man chew up and eat a lightbulb without harm once, too.
Right, and I'll bet you didn't ask whether he could do this every time or anything about percentages. You did ask, however, how he was able to do this even this one time.
Like I said, unlikely things happen to people all the time.
But eating a light bulb without harm is not an unlikely event, it is a seemingly impossible event. Therefore, the question it raises is not how often, but how it happened at all, just like the guy who stuck a needle through his arm and had it heal in 30 seconds.
For example, isn't it incredibly unlikely for the temperature to be in the 40's in New England in mid-February on the exact days that I would want it to be during my move?
Actually, I don't know, because I've never lived up that way. In this example from your OP, the matter of likelihood and whether this was a one-time occurrence matters a lot.
But I wasn't addressing the example from your OP. You'll notice I didn't answer that post at all, because I don't disagree with the argument in it. I answered a question sidelined asked, which was "What are the criteria for considering a prayer answered...?" I thought it was on topic, so I tackled that one, because I don't think the answer to that question is simple. I think it varies depending on the claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by nator, posted 03-13-2006 11:02 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by MangyTiger, posted 03-13-2006 8:47 PM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4081 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 84 of 126 (295215)
03-14-2006 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by MangyTiger
03-13-2006 8:47 PM


Re: "enough" is the key word here
schraf writes:
Well, yes, I'm not saying it was a "normal" occurence. But if you are trying to tell me that this was some kind of supernatural occurence, there is a LOT more in the way of controls and testing I would want to put the guy through before I bought that something other than a freakshow act was going on.
I probably should just have quoted this like you did and said, "It appears to me we agree. I'm not saying anything more than this."
The key point here is seemingly impossible.
I agree with this, too. We have to find out if it's really impossible, and finding that out takes some creativity.
There's some guy, a magician himself, who wrote a book exposing Uri Geller's "psychic" powers, as well as the guy on That's Incredible who could move pages in a phone book by supposed mental power. He was pretty creative about finding out how people did things like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by MangyTiger, posted 03-13-2006 8:47 PM MangyTiger has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by nator, posted 03-15-2006 1:18 PM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4081 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 90 of 126 (295603)
03-15-2006 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by nator
03-15-2006 1:18 PM


Re: "enough" is the key word here
I couldn't think of his name, but I was thinking he was called The Amazing Randi. I was wondering why I remembered it being spelled with an i. Must be him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by nator, posted 03-15-2006 1:18 PM nator has not replied

  
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