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Author Topic:   We didn't pray
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 5 of 126 (293194)
03-08-2006 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
03-06-2006 9:34 AM


I've been waiting for this topic to come out.
It's a good example of how sheer chance can create remarkable instances of good fortune.
However, I don't think this example falsifies faith and prayer. Why? Well, this may be to your surprise, but infact, it's because you have faith. In this example, you had faith.
You had an intention of where you were headed, and I doubt you and Zhimbo were intending to die in an icy grave.
Therefore, as far as I know, against the odds you ventured out despite any fears you might have.
Perhaps not faith in God, yet Christ did say that if you had faith and belief, you could move mountains. Not faith in God, he only said, "faith".
IMHO, I see no reason why God would only exclusively endow the capacity to have faith to believers. Afterall, he certainly seemed to be saying that anyone could have faith.
(I'm not claiming that your faith caused good weather). I'm just putting a cat amongst the pidgeons.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 03-08-2006 9:37 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 03-08-2006 12:10 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 21 of 126 (293449)
03-08-2006 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
03-08-2006 9:37 AM


Re: A Cat Amongst the Pidgeons
Ofcourse, I believe that Shraff, or anyone, has the capacity for faith.
Faith and success? Not sure they're related.
In my experience, only my none-selfish or necessity-based prayers, are abundantly answered. What I "want", well, if we went on what I want alone, in prayer experiments, then you would certainly have to conclude there is no God. In that respect, God is not interested in what we want or think, or in "success".
Success, as in the worldly context, is not Godly, IMHO. Christ came as a servant.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 65 by nator, posted 03-11-2006 3:36 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 23 of 126 (293455)
03-08-2006 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
03-08-2006 12:10 PM


Re: The Lord helps those who help themselves
If Schraf and Zhim had been stranded in a blizzard with all their worldly possessions and a bag of cats, what would they have done? Sat there praying for help, while slowly hypothermalizing? Or used the brains God (if any) gave them to figure a way out?
Yes, a practical approach. No believer need bother to pretend they wouldn't firstly consult their mobile phone before praying.
I think any faith is rewarded though, or atleast it's my belief that it is. For example, just to put yourself in a position of danger requires some faith.

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 25 of 126 (293465)
03-08-2006 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Modulous
03-08-2006 9:46 AM


Re: Good things happen to those that don't pray
link writes:
The post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this therefore because of this) fallacy is based upon the mistaken notion that simply because one thing happens after another, the first event was a cause of the second event. Post hoc reasoning is the basis for many superstitions and erroneous beliefs.
Many events follow sequential patterns without being causally related. For example, you have a cold, so you drink fluids and two weeks later your cold goes away. You have a headache so you stand on your head and six hours later your headache goes away. You put acne medication on a pimple and three weeks later the pimple goes away
Notice anything?
I noticed that even if you were correct about a prayer being true, it would still have to be regarded as a post-hoc claim because of our ignorance to bivalence.
This is a mis-understanding IMHO. Just because a prayer preceded an event, doesn't mean that it MUST be false because it preceded it. It is only fallacious, if it's preceding it is what is claimed to have caused it. But it's not. The claim is that God caused it because of our specific request. This is slightly different to claiming the preceding factor alone.
What the fallacy actually entails, is that the preceding factor is not enough to establish a causal connection. Therefore, a prayer request merely preceding a prayer answer, isn't enough to automatically make it post-hoc/untrue (as with the example below). Infact, it is just an unsupported claim.
For example, I coughed and then I found spit on my monitor. Does that mean it's post-hoc?
It is not post-hoc, simply because the cough preceded the spit. If I claimed it's preceding it caused it then it's false. But infact, I'm not. I'm claiming the spit from my mouth caused it.
Therefore, if all prayers are genuine, then they are still regarded as post-hoc because we can't prove it.
Infact an argument from ignorance!
We claim X caused P.
Because we can't prove X caused P therefore our claim is untrue.
post hoc fallacy - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 44 of 126 (293893)
03-10-2006 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by truthlover
03-09-2006 5:40 PM


Did you really do 400mph down the freeway? Now that's on fire for Jesus.
It's a good point you make though.
I was thinking about misses and hits. There's also another factor; misses can't determine whether God is false. He could be rejecting your prayer request or not exist. There is no way to determine which.
But with hits, God can be verified IMHO. Either it's chance, or if the hits are exceptional, then it seems reasonable to suggest it is the one we are asking to cause these events, who actually caused them.
...I don't know about you, but sometimes I pray for things I want at the time, but I don't really know what I want or need, like most humans. This could also answer for misses, them being God's better judgement/plan.

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 74 of 126 (294865)
03-13-2006 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by nator
03-11-2006 3:36 PM


Re: A Cat Amongst the Pidgeons
You must not ever pray for world peace or an end to hunger, or rape, or general misery, then, eh?
It's true. I don't pray for those things.
Don't think me cold, because I've always thought that this was given to us to sort out. Afterall, man is not omnipotent but he could end starvation and achieve world peace by this time tomorrow.
I've dealt with these things practically rather than prayerfully.
But generally, I don't make general prayers. I make specific ones. If there is an ill person, I'll pray for them.
I wouldn't pray for world peace or an end to hunger because I know God wouldn't answer those requests.
Don't forget, I base how I act on what Christ alone, said. He said we'd always have the poor, and he never indicated he would sort out the world untill the judgement. I simply don't regard myself as important enough to make such requests.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-13-2006 10:46 AM

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 Message 65 by nator, posted 03-11-2006 3:36 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by nator, posted 03-13-2006 11:14 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 78 of 126 (294895)
03-13-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by nator
03-13-2006 11:14 AM


Re: A Cat Amongst the Pidgeons
*gasps at Shraff silence*
(a first time for everything eh).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by nator, posted 03-13-2006 11:14 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 122 of 126 (300716)
04-03-2006 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by nator
04-03-2006 5:22 PM


Re: But someone did
I agree that looking at it this way, you win.
You just have to understand that the desire to believe itself is strong. Why is this so?
(For us, fear of death etc...isn't enough to dissuade us from thinking that we are more than mere animals).
If prayer experiments don't show anything, then I'm not going to argue with the results. As far as I'm concerned, those results are exactly what God wants them to be. I am honest enough to even not argue if they indicate that God isn't there.
I suppose that for you, the simplest answer is that it's psychological. If it is, and there is no heaven, then sorry if I was wrong, because I didn't mean to be, I am just convinced that Christ is true. Can you understand?
If you can't understand, then all I can say is that it's what drives me, atleast. A bit like a supreme motivation that conquers everything else and makes it look silly. Ever felt it? Well, that's the feeling it is, but very strong, and it doesn't need a REASON because it's real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by nator, posted 04-03-2006 5:22 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 125 of 126 (301137)
04-05-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by nator
04-04-2006 9:20 AM


Re: But someone did
I absolutely believe that your feelings are real. But it is far, far more reasonable and likely that we convince ourselves in our feelings about God than the other way around.
Does it matter, in regards to his existence? Why is it more likely? Perhaps the feeling is an indicator that God does exist rather than an indicator that he doesn't.
Is the feeling evidence that he exists? If he does exist then it was correct.
You have a broken clock. You look at it and it says 9am. You therefore state that it is 9am as you don't know it's broken. You then find out that it's broken and that it was 9am anyway.
Were you correct about it being 9am? Are you incorrect because the clock was broken?

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