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Author Topic:   If God is dead, does mankind become God?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 31 of 109 (332406)
07-16-2006 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by lfen
07-16-2006 11:50 PM


Re: Is a rock true or false?
Is that rock true or false?
If it is true, then we have in our hand a piece of reality. If it is false, then we have in our hand what we perceive as reality.
God offers the one, you prefer to keep the other. A choice is a choice. J
ust because you believe you cannot know, does not mean that others don't. After all, if you say that I cannot know the truth, you must invoke omniscience of your own to make the claim. That is self defeating.
Please go back to kindergarten with your games. I have no need for a pied piper, and neither does any imaginary audience in this hall of clowns who whisper to each other the beautiful things they love to hear.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 32 of 109 (332407)
07-17-2006 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rob
07-16-2006 11:32 PM


That is why the first and second commandments dealt with this issue first.
1. I am the Lord thine God and thou shall have no other God.
2. Thou shall not create God in your own image.
That appears to be your own non-standard translation. Perhaps you are starting a new sect.
Edited by nwr, : No reason given.

Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 33 of 109 (332408)
07-17-2006 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
07-16-2006 11:52 PM


"Truth" is not an absolute. It is only what we internalize.
That would be an absolute if it were true. Unfortunately, self contradictory statements are always false.

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 34 of 109 (332409)
07-17-2006 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by nwr
07-17-2006 12:00 AM


I was paraphrasing. Please dispense with the hair splitting

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 35 of 109 (332410)
07-17-2006 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rob
07-16-2006 11:58 PM


Re: Is a rock true or false?
A rock is.
A proposition in a language such as "There is a rock in my hand" or "rocks are hard" are abstract statements that can be evaluated as true or false.
Rob, you are the one who has consistently played language games in bad faith in order to manipulate people's emotions. You are now refusing to clarify and choosing to keep things muddled, conflated, and confused. Why is that?
After all, if you say that I cannot know the truth, you must invoke omniscience of your own to make the claim. That is self defeating.
I will say that you require oxygen to live. That if you are deprived of oxygen in most environments, setting aside for the time being the possiblity of being cryonic suspended which doesn't yet seem viable, for a length of time of 10 or more minutes you will most likely die.
Am I invoking omniscience of my own in making such an induction?
How do I defeat myself?
lfen

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 36 of 109 (332411)
07-17-2006 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Rob
07-17-2006 12:01 AM


Rob writes:
"Truth" is not an absolute. It is only what we internalize.
That would be an absolute if it were true.
Don't confuse yourself.
You are assuming that everything is absolute. Adjust your thinking to: nothing is absolute unless shown to be absolute.
The first step in releasing your need for an external God is understanding that it is an addiction. You have already done that (almost) by starting this thread.
The next step is to release your need for absolutes.

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 37 of 109 (332414)
07-17-2006 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by lfen
07-17-2006 12:08 AM


Re: Is a rock true or false?
Rob, you are the one who has consistently played language games in bad faith in order to manipulate people's emotions.
Did Jesus do the same?
From another thread:
quote:
...That being said, the most offensive thing anyone could say to the fear and ego driven heart is, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
That is the ultimate, staggering, and exclusive claim to sovereignty. It is also a completely reasonable statement. Even so, such a statement is either motivated by the purest form of ego, and/or, it intends to manipulate by the most blatant use of fear, or such a statement is the most selfless expression and profound truth that any man will ever hear. It is a claim that only God can make consistently.
I believe that is why C.S. Lewis wrote the following:
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ”I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic”on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg”or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 38 of 109 (332418)
07-17-2006 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
07-17-2006 12:10 AM


I'm not even going to argue with you ringo. You cannot hear, you cannot see, and you would not if you could.
As you project your own addiction to your own God on me, you only make the disease worse for yourself.
If you don't like preaching, then stop!
Take a vacation...

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 39 of 109 (332422)
07-17-2006 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Rob
07-17-2006 12:36 AM


Rob writes:
If you don't like preaching, then stop!
You're the one who asked me for enlightenment.
Your own OP suggests that gods are only a substitute for something we already have. Don't blame me if your own "truth" makes you uncomfortable.

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 40 of 109 (332424)
07-17-2006 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rob
07-17-2006 12:30 AM


Re: Is a rock true or false?
Did Jesus do the same?
I don't know. We have virtually no evidence of what he said or even if he existed.
http://home.ca.inter.net/oblio/home.htm
It is possible that a teacher had awakened and was trying to explain awakening but was killed before he could finish his teaching. In Ramana Maharshi we have a modern awakened teacher whose teaching was recorded over decades.
Self-enquiry is certainly not an empty formula; it is
more than the repetition of any mantra. If the
enquiry, ”Who am I?’ were a mere mental
questioning, it would not be of much value. The
very purpose of Self-enquiry is to focus the entire
mind at its source. It is not, therefore, a case of one
”I’ searching for another ”I’.
Much less is Self-enquiry an empty formula, for it
involves an intense activity of the entire mind to
keep it steadily poised in pure Self-awareness.
Self-enquiry is the one infallible means, the only
direct one, to realise the unconditioned, Absolute
Being that you really are.
Ramana Maharshi - A Spiritual Giant of the Twentieth Century
The teacher that in English is called Jesus could have been trying to explain that one had to look to the source of the self, the "I am" to find what he called the Kingdom of Heaven within.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me." Means literally that was one has to follow the sense of the "I am" to the source and that is the way to the source. He wasn't refering to a specific biological organism. Christian dogma is a misunderstanding of this and a creation of a theology that protects the ego's sense of itself as a discrete being.
lfen

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 41 of 109 (332425)
07-17-2006 1:06 AM


The response to date...
As I said in the larger part of my main point to begin this thread:
quote:
We all must have a purpose or we cannot get out of bed in the morning. For some it is pleasure, for others it is carrying their cross. Their are as many truths that fuel a man as there are cultures. Without a purpose, or a belief that one's purpose has been lost, many take their own lives.
Although most of you do not seem to me to be wanting a discussion so much as meat for the pack to devour, I would still rather have you out here than calling it quits and cashing in your chips just yet.
Though this pearls to swine game is getting old and I must get to sleep for the night, it is strangely nice to know that some things don't change. After all... a god... any god... is absolute!
Sovereignty is sovereignty!
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 42 of 109 (332426)
07-17-2006 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Rob
07-17-2006 1:06 AM


Re: The response to date...
Rob writes:
After all... a god... any god... is absolute!
Another example of the confusion caused by "absolutes".
As your own OP says:
quote:
Their are as many truths that fuel a man as there are cultures.
Actually, there are as many "truths" as there are men because each man's truth is what is inside him. How then can any of those "truths" be absolute? How can any one man's "god" be absolute?

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 Message 41 by Rob, posted 07-17-2006 1:06 AM Rob has replied

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 43 of 109 (332427)
07-17-2006 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by lfen
07-17-2006 1:02 AM


Re: Is a rock true or false?
You know Ifen, I don't personally have problem with your post being off topic. All of these topics seems to meld into one another.
But it is interesting that you sugest the whole 'oneness thing'. It's pretty popular these days.
Jesus said, I have not come to unite but divide. He said alot of things like that, and there were a lot of witnesses. It was recorded in languages that are still spoken and written today. Languages such as Hebrew, greek, and Latin that were written languages.
Furthermore people gave their lives to make sure what was spoken was not altered. Apostle's strongarmed, imprisoned, and crucified (literally) for not being willing to compromise the truth.
All this talk about mistranslation is preposterous. Perhaps you could say that for the Old Testament which was once carried by an oral tradition, but not about Jesus, who by the way confirmed the Old Testament. He quoted it as having authority, and as proof of His own personage.
He said absolutely outrageous things! Things that if not true are blasphemous in the highest degree even to you! That is why they crucified Him.

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 44 of 109 (332428)
07-17-2006 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
07-17-2006 1:16 AM


Re: The response to date...
I am not even going to try to bring all of that back into context Ringo. You just spin what you have to... I don't have time for it...

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 45 of 109 (332429)
07-17-2006 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Rob
07-17-2006 1:21 AM


Re: The response to date...
Rob writes:
I am not even going to try to bring all of that back into context Ringo.
It's all perfectly within the context of your OP.
Allow me to review:
"If God is dead, does mankind become God?"
Yes, because every man's god is just his own perception of what God really is. Since every man has his own perception, there can be no absolute "truth" about God - at least, no absolute "truth" that can ever be known to man.
You just don't seem to like the clear implications of what you yourself posted.
I suppose you were planning on showing that the notion of mankind becoming God is absurd. Instead, you have stumbled on something quite profound.
Give your own discovery a chance before you reject it out of hand.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

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