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Author Topic:   The "Gospel" Of John
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 215 (165949)
12-07-2004 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by arachnophilia
12-07-2004 12:47 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Arachnophilia,
You quoted Genesis 6:9:
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
You quoted this in response to Swift's statement that no one can be perfect.
You have misunderstood what is meant by "perfect" in Genesis 6:9. It does not mean "sinless" as was implied by Swift.
Indeed David's heart was "perfect" with God but he was not sinless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2004 12:47 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2004 4:05 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 215 (165970)
12-07-2004 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
12-07-2004 4:05 PM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Arachnophilia writes:
don't ever claim to be a literalist. swift didn't say "sinless" he said "perfect." genesis calls noah "perfect."
I won't if you won't...
I didn't say he said "sinless", I said he implied "sinless".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2004 4:05 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2004 2:08 AM dpardo has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 215 (165972)
12-07-2004 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by purpledawn
12-07-2004 7:09 AM


Purpledawn writes:
If the book was written by John the apostle, then as a disciple and a Jew, who was supposedly witness to the transfiguration of Jesus (Mark 9:2-8, Matthew 17:1-13, Luke 9:28-36), he should not have made the following mistakes:
John 9:19-22
...22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.
During the ministry of Jesus, his followers were allowed in the synagogues. So the parents in verse 22 would not need to fear the Jews during the life of Jesus. Only after the institution of Petition 12 of the Prayer of 18 Petitions reworded to include Christians (Nazarenes) were the Christians not welcome in the synagogues.
I have already pointed out to you, in another thread, that you are equating, erroneously, following Christ with acknowledging that Jesus was the Christ.
Indeed many people followed Jesus around and listened to his teachings but not all of them acknowledged (especially publicly) that he was the Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by purpledawn, posted 12-07-2004 7:09 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by purpledawn, posted 12-07-2004 7:21 PM dpardo has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 215 (165981)
12-07-2004 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by arachnophilia
12-07-2004 10:06 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Arachnophilia writes:
look, genesis 1 and 2 may completely contradict each other.
It has been shown, on this forum, that it is completely reasonable to accept Genesis 2 as elaboration, in part, of Genesis 1. The narrative style of the author is used again in Genesis 5:1-2:
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Is it logical to deduce that this is yet another creation account?
No. It is plainly a continuation of the story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2004 10:06 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2004 2:04 AM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 215 (165985)
12-07-2004 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by arachnophilia
12-07-2004 3:30 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Arachnophilia writes:
although, on a similar point, dpardo still hasn't answered my quotes in another thread. he wanted to know why quoting the new testament to jews was unacceptable, and so i quoted the koran to him. i think i'll try the book of mormon next. and if that doesn't work, dianetics.
I already addressed your point when I said that the New Testament is not required for there to have been an offer by Jesus and the Apostles to the Jews of that time.
If you are interested in debating material in the Koran I suggest you create a new thread. I would be interested in participating if you are prepared to defend the Koran as divine revelation by God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2004 3:30 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2004 1:56 AM dpardo has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 215 (166255)
12-08-2004 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by arachnophilia
12-08-2004 2:04 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Arachnophilia writes:
why does gen 6:9 repeat 5:32? why does 6 contain a new introduction and reference point if it's a story continued from gen 5 and 4?
Genesis 5:32 says:
32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Genesis 6:9 says:
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
The new introduction and reference point in Genesis 6:9 is to shift the focus (to Noah in this case).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2004 2:04 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2004 4:48 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 215 (166346)
12-08-2004 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by arachnophilia
12-08-2004 4:48 PM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Arachnophilia writes:
notice one calls god by name, and the other calls god "god?"
Let's examine the following excerpt from Dr. Lee Belford's Introduction to Judaism:
It has been suggested that justice without mercy is cruelty. God is not cruel. He is patient and longsuffering. He speaks words of warning. When nothing else will do, he punishes his people, not for revenge, but to lead them to repentance and a change of life.
Too often we have forgotten that the King of the universe is also the Father of men in the Old Testament.
Notice how in the second paragraph there is a shift from the term "God" to "King".
Am I on to something here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by arachnophilia, posted 12-08-2004 4:48 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2004 1:59 AM dpardo has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 215 (166565)
12-09-2004 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by purpledawn
12-09-2004 7:41 AM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Purpledawn writes:
I'm still waiting for dpardo to show that Jews, other than the 12, acknowledged Jesus as the messiah during his ministry. He also needs to show that those people who acknowledged Jesus as the messiah were excluded from the synagogues during the ministry of Jesus.
To my knowledge, there is no verse(s) in the other gospels that corroborates John's statement in John 9:22:
22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
It is a reasonable statement though.
In Matthew 26:63-66 Jesus acknowledges that he is, in fact, the Messiah and he is accused of blasphemy by the high priest and summarily sentenced to death-
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2004 7:41 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2004 8:25 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 70 by cmanteuf, posted 12-10-2004 1:22 AM dpardo has not replied
 Message 156 by purpledawn, posted 12-15-2004 1:19 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 215 (166726)
12-09-2004 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by purpledawn
12-09-2004 8:25 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Purpledawn writes:
Did Jesus reveal that he was the messiah to anyone aside from the 12 before his trial? The synoptics sound as though he didn't.
Luke 4:16:
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
Emphasis mine.
Changed emphasized verse from red to a more readable color - The Queen
This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 12-09-2004 09:32 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by purpledawn, posted 12-09-2004 8:25 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by purpledawn, posted 12-10-2004 7:43 AM dpardo has replied
 Message 75 by dpardo, posted 12-10-2004 12:43 PM dpardo has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 215 (166961)
12-10-2004 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by dpardo
12-09-2004 9:09 PM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
The Queen writes:
Changed emphasized verse from red to a more readable color - The Queen
Salmon.
Looks good!
Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by dpardo, posted 12-09-2004 9:09 PM dpardo has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 215 (166963)
12-10-2004 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by purpledawn
12-10-2004 7:43 AM


Re: Follow or Acknowledge
Purpledawn writes:
Not really a clear proclamation of Messiahship.
That scripture by Isaiah can only be fulfilled by the Messiah.
They that heard him understood what he said.
Notice their reaction in Luke 4:28-29:
28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by purpledawn, posted 12-10-2004 7:43 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by purpledawn, posted 12-10-2004 7:22 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 215 (166965)
12-10-2004 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by arachnophilia
12-10-2004 1:36 AM


Arachnophilia writes:
if god didn't want me to go hell, wouldn't he just say that i'm not going to hell? why did someone have to die for that?
and if it's the death that saved people, how did jesus forgive sins and grant salvation BEFORE his death?
quote:
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Emphasis mine.
By faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by arachnophilia, posted 12-10-2004 1:36 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by arachnophilia, posted 12-10-2004 10:02 PM dpardo has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 215 (166967)
12-10-2004 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
12-10-2004 1:23 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
Jar writes:
John was saying that the Gospels that preceeded his were simply wrong, they gave the wrong message.
You never cease to amaze me.
Please provide evidence of this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 1:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 1:48 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 215 (166982)
12-10-2004 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
12-10-2004 1:48 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
IMO, the most important point to consider here is whether the teachings of the Gospels are contrary to each other or the rest of the New Testament (and all Bible scripture).
The teachings of the Gospel of John are consistent with the material in the Book of Acts, which details the work and miracles of the Apostles immediately after Jesus' death.
Can you please post evidence of anti-semitism in John's Gospel?
Edit: Grammar.
This message has been edited by dpardo, 12-10-2004 02:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 1:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 3:09 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 215 (166992)
12-10-2004 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
12-10-2004 3:09 PM


Re: Well,I've held back on this for quite awhile...
Look through John and you'll find a far greater number of instances where "Jews" are identified as non-believers and even villains, for example is 9:8 and 10:31, as well as...
Some Jews were non-believers?
And, John identified more of them?
John 9:8:
8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
?
You also mentioned John 10:31:
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
This was in response to Jesus saying (in John 10:30):
30 I and my Father are one.
This is your evidence of anti-semitism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 3:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 12-10-2004 6:06 PM dpardo has replied

  
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