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Author Topic:   What evidence is needed to change a creationist
nator
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 91 of 144 (453269)
02-01-2008 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by asif
02-01-2008 4:16 PM


quote:
If we indeed evolved from something else (apes, chimps , etc.) into what we are today and the process took millions of years where is the chain of species between the two extremes (us as humans today and the chimp, ape at the other end)

It isn't a chain, but more like a bush.

However, there is no direct chain between chimps and apes and humans because we didn't decend from chimps or apes.

Modern apes and chimps, and humans, share a common ancestor.

quote:
The answer most of my friends have given me is that everything that branched off from that chain of link died off , but I tell them that seems all to convenient that every single thing died off and not even one line between existed

Why? That sort of thing happens all the time.

Homo sapiens sapiens' last related subspecies was probably Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and went extinct only about 30,000 years ago. They probably co-existed with Homo sapiens sapiens for the last 15,000 of that.

On the other hand, we are extremely closely related to Bonobo Chimpanzees, with over 99% of our DNA being identical to theirs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by asif, posted 02-01-2008 4:16 PM asif has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by asif, posted 02-01-2008 7:07 PM nator has responded

  
asif
Junior Member (Idle past 4210 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 02-01-2008


Message 92 of 144 (453286)
02-01-2008 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by nator
02-01-2008 6:48 PM


"Why? That sort of thing happens all the time."

but docent it seem to convenient to say anything that didn't evolve enough to be humans just died. someone somewhere has to survive. If Monkeys can survive , wouldn't 50% evolved humans survive ?

What surprises me is the theory that is so rich in data and evidence can say that they just died

and to say it happens all the time , I mean how do we know for a Scientefic fact that it happened. I mean its just that it seems theory makes so many assumptions that to me have not been proven as facts.

how do we know that "it happens all the time" can you please point me to scientific proof , I would love to learn and read more

and how do we know for a fact everything that branched off "Died"

once again these are honest questions I struggle with

so
1. how do we know it happens all the time (study , facts, proof ?)
2. how do we know about the not 100% evolved humans going extinct ?

Edited by asif, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by nator, posted 02-01-2008 6:48 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by nator, posted 02-01-2008 7:52 PM asif has responded
 Message 95 by nator, posted 02-01-2008 8:12 PM asif has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 93 of 144 (453311)
02-01-2008 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by asif
02-01-2008 7:07 PM


quote:
but docent it seem to convenient to say anything that didn't evolve enough to be humans just died.

No.

Most of the life that has ever existed on Earth is extinct.

Extinction is the norm. This isn't "convenient", it is simply a direct observation of the facts.

And there isn't any goal to evolution, either. None of the other apes were "trying" to be human so they could survive, or something.

Evolution just doesn't work that way.

quote:
someone somewhere has to survive.

Nope. There's no rule that says something has to survive.

There were once at least 17,000 species of Trilobite, but not a single one is known to have survived to today.

We might find one someday, of course, but the fact still remains that the vast, vast majority of them are long gone.

Extinct.

quote:
If Monkeys can survive , wouldn't 50% evolved humans survive?

There is no such thing as "50% evolved". Every species is 100% evolved.

OTOH, there are, in fact, "99% humans" alive today, though. They are called Pan paniscus, or "Bonobo chimpanzees.

And again, there is no rule that any particular species "has to" survive".

Some do, but most don't.

quote:
What surprises me is the theory that is so rich in data and evidence can say that they just died

Like I said above, extinction is the norm.

The reason we know they lived and became exinct is from the evidence found in nature.

quote:
and to say it happens all the time , I mean how do we know for a Scientefic fact that it happened.

Know of any living Trilobites?

Extinction is the norm.

quote:
I mean its just that it seems theory makes so many assumptions that to me have not been proven as facts.

Can you even correctly state what the theory is?

Can you summarize what the Theory of Evolution is in a few sentences without having to go look it up somewhere?

I predict that you cannot, and that should tell you something.

If the ToE is so poorly supported, then are all Evolutionary Biologists stupid? Or liars?

quote:
how do we know that "it happens all the time" can you please point me to scientific proof , I would love to learn and read more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction

quote:
and how do we know for a fact everything that branched off "Died"

Do you see any Neanderthals walking around today?

quote:
1. how do we know it happens all the time (study , facts, proof ?)

see above

quote:
2. how do we know about the not 100% evolved humans going extinct ?

Again, everything is 100% evolved.

We have fossils and archaelogical evidence of Neanderthals, but no known living Neanderthals.

Pretty safe to say, I think, that Neanderthals have died out.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by asif, posted 02-01-2008 7:07 PM asif has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by asif, posted 02-01-2008 8:08 PM nator has responded

  
asif
Junior Member (Idle past 4210 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 02-01-2008


Message 94 of 144 (453315)
02-01-2008 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by nator
02-01-2008 7:52 PM


no not everyone that believed in ToE is liars and biggots.

Its a theory that people believe in and some don't. My only complain is still you have not pointed me to a scientific study of your answers which I would like to read.

I dont believe in creationism as described in the bible , but I am not convinced by evolution. Why is it that we have to take one of the two as facts ?

Isnt it just possible that 100 years from now the ToE is proven to be incorrect by some other theory.

My point being so far I have no read any literature that is convinced me that ToE is a False proof 100% correct theory.

You see your answers are not convincing me

you are telling me its fact and thats it. How do we even know that 17,000 species of Trilobite existed. Once again can you provide me the link of the study that showed that so i can read it that all of them went extinct and how ?

I am here to learn not to create a fight , I really appreciate you answering these questions but its just that the answers are no based on false proof facts and are unconvincing right now.

Thanks


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by nator, posted 02-01-2008 7:52 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by nator, posted 02-01-2008 8:31 PM asif has responded
 Message 102 by teen4christ, posted 02-12-2008 4:54 PM asif has not yet responded
 Message 103 by bluescat48, posted 02-12-2008 10:27 PM asif has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 95 of 144 (453318)
02-01-2008 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by asif
02-01-2008 7:07 PM


Here's a couple of illustrations of the branch of the evolutionary tree of life with the primates on it.

I hope these help to illustrate things for you.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by asif, posted 02-01-2008 7:07 PM asif has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 96 of 144 (453322)
02-01-2008 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by asif
02-01-2008 8:08 PM


quote:
no not everyone that believed in ToE is liars and biggots.

But what about "stupid"? Are the Geneticists and Biologists whi use the Theory of Evolution in their work every day somehow deluded or just such incompetent scientists that they don't realize that the foundational theory of their fields is fatally in error?

quote:
Its a theory that people believe in and some don't.

What is it, though, that you think you are arguing against?

Can you explain it in a couple of sentences?

If you can't, what do you think that means about your knowledge of it?

Again, are the Biologists and Geneticists just "believing" in the ToE, or do they actually use it as the foundation of their work every day, do you think?

quote:
My only complain is still you have not pointed me to a scientific study of your answers which I would like to read.

Um, did you read the references at the end of the wiki on Extinction?

There's at least half a dozen clickable links to scientific papers there.

quote:
I dont believe in creationism as described in the bible , but I am not convinced by evolution. Why is it that we have to take one of the two as facts ?

What do you think evolution claims?

quote:
Isnt it just possible that 100 years from now the ToE is proven to be incorrect by some other theory.

Nothing is ever proven in science.

The correct concept is "falsified". This means that every scientific theory, no matter how established, must always be able to be addressed if new information comes to light.

To answer your question, sure, it is possible.

It is possible that the Theory of the Heliocentric Solar System, the Germ Theory of Disease, and the Atomic Theory of Matter will also be falsified.

Are you suggesting that we should pretend that we don't know anything, simply becasue we can't ever know everything?

quote:
My point being so far I have no read any literature that is convinced me that ToE is a False proof 100% correct theory.

Nothing in science is 100% proven or correct.

Please, I am begging you, tell me in your own words what you think the theory of Evolution states.

I suspect that you don't really know, or have an incorrect notion of what it is.

quote:
You see your answers are not convincing me

And you aren't telling me why they aren't convincing you.

You aren't discussing the evidence, you are just denying.

quote:
you are telling me its fact and thats it.

How do we even know that 17,000 species of Trilobite existed. Once again can you provide me the link of the study that showed that so i can read it that all of them went extinct and how ?


Sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilobite
http://www.trilobites.info/
http://www.trilobites.info/trilobite.htm

You know, it wouldn't kill you to do a bit of your own googling.

Look, can you just think for a minute about what you've asked.

How do we know that there were 17,000 species of Trilobite? How do you think we know? Do you know that such things as fossils exist?

I mean, come on, I'm starting to think you are pulling my leg.

You act like you've never heard of extinction, and now you act all shocked that we might have a reason to think that there were 17,000 species of trilobite.

Exactly how much science/Biology education do you actually have?

Edited by nator, : No reason given.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by asif, posted 02-01-2008 8:08 PM asif has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by asif, posted 02-01-2008 9:16 PM nator has responded

  
asif
Junior Member (Idle past 4210 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 02-01-2008


Message 97 of 144 (453334)
02-01-2008 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by nator
02-01-2008 8:31 PM


thanks for your response , and to let you know yes i am reading stuff on wikipedia right now

I am not pulling your leg , I am asking honest questions I have. I will read all the links you have provided (will take 2-3 days to go thru all that and get back to you)

once again
thanks

Edited by asif, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by nator, posted 02-01-2008 8:31 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by nator, posted 02-04-2008 7:10 PM asif has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 144 (453927)
02-04-2008 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by asif
02-01-2008 9:16 PM


bump for asif
Hope you aren't a hit and runner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by asif, posted 02-01-2008 9:16 PM asif has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by asif, posted 02-04-2008 8:20 PM nator has responded

  
asif
Junior Member (Idle past 4210 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 02-01-2008


Message 99 of 144 (453945)
02-04-2008 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by nator
02-04-2008 7:10 PM


Re: bump for asif
no , I am not , there is a lot of stuff there to read, and the reply I post I want it to be intelligent so I can clearly lay out all the questions I have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by nator, posted 02-04-2008 7:10 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by nator, posted 02-05-2008 5:56 PM asif has not yet responded
 Message 101 by nator, posted 02-12-2008 7:20 AM asif has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 100 of 144 (454141)
02-05-2008 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by asif
02-04-2008 8:20 PM


Re: bump for asif
Excellent.

I look forward to your response.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by asif, posted 02-04-2008 8:20 PM asif has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 101 of 144 (455373)
02-12-2008 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by asif
02-04-2008 8:20 PM


Second bump for asif
OK, I think you were putting me on when you said that you weren't a hit and run poster.

Come on, time to actually discuss the evidence I provided.

Don't be afraid. Learning new things is really quite enjoyable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by asif, posted 02-04-2008 8:20 PM asif has not yet responded

  
teen4christ
Member (Idle past 4120 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 102 of 144 (455495)
02-12-2008 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by asif
02-01-2008 8:08 PM


asif writes
quote:
you are telling me its fact and thats it.

Evolution is both fact and theory.

quote:
Isnt it just possible that 100 years from now the ToE is proven to be incorrect by some other theory.

Yes, it is very possible that the theory could be discarded in the future. This is why a theory could never be proven. I'll tell you this much. Within the scientific community, there are few other theories that have such overwhelming evidence to support it. Again, while it is possible for someone to bring about some evidence that would disprove the theory, many are beginning to believe that this particular theory is here to stay.

quote:
My point being so far I have no read any literature that is convinced me that ToE is a False proof 100% correct theory.

There are very smart people who spend their entire lives studying and researching on this issue. These are called scientists, professors, etc. They didn't become biologists because they asked a couple questions and someone somewhere gave them the answers.

If you are so interested in this subject, perhaps you should consider taking a few classes at your local college? While it will certainly not give you all the answers you want, it's a start. You just can't expect someone over the internet to summarize 150 years worth of scientific inquiry in a few short paragraphs for you.

quote:
You see your answers are not convincing me

Those answers shouldn't be convincing. No short answers should ever be convincing when we are talking about a subject as broad as evolutionary biology.

quote:
How do we even know that 17,000 species of Trilobite existed.

Because we've found millions and millions of fossil remains of these critters, and we aren't seeing any crawling around.

quote:
Once again can you provide me the link of the study that showed that so i can read it that all of them went extinct and how ?

Well, I would guess that most people here speak from experience. It certainly is my case anyhow. I'm lousy at internet research. Unlike a lot of people, I took the long route by going to college and do actual researches in libraries.

With that said, I'll leave this question to someone else who is more fluent in the art of internet searching.

quote:
I am here to learn not to create a fight , I really appreciate you answering these questions but its just that the answers are no based on false proof facts and are unconvincing right now.

Just keep this in mind. There are millions of very smart people out there who think this particular theory is here to stay. The theory of evolution has contributed to many many discoveries and scientific endeavors that have saved millions and millions of lives. Evolution directly predicted the existence of DNA and directly lead to the entire field of genetics. That flu vaccine we took late last year was produced based on evolutionary concepts. All of these things are taking place without your approval. So, something must be right about this theory that has made it so successful not just on paper but also in real life.

Again, it is unfair for you to want some answers in a few short paragraphs that summarize something as broad as evolutionary biology. Do you remember taking biology in middle school? How about geology? I do. I also remember taking algebra in middle school. The thing that I remember most clearly about these things is I didn't pass those classes after spending 15 minutes or so asking a couple questions and reading a couple answers.

With that said, my advice is this. Instead of asking people to prove to you right now in a few short paragraphs that evolution is real, perhaps you should consider asking for specific things about evolution. For example, you could start by asking people to explain how organisms are slightly different from their parents because of mutations and how these mutations can accumulate into something that could give them slight advantages over other organisms. In order to understand evolution, you need to start small. You're asking big questions right now, and I don't think anyone can answer your big questions, especially when we're not even sure you could understand them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by asif, posted 02-01-2008 8:08 PM asif has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2511 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 103 of 144 (455579)
02-12-2008 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by asif
02-01-2008 8:08 PM


you are telling me its fact and thats it. How do we even know that 17,000 species of Trilobite existed. Once again can you provide me the link of the study that showed that so i can read it that all of them went extinct and how ?

Try this trilobite


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by asif, posted 02-01-2008 8:08 PM asif has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by asif, posted 02-12-2008 11:46 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

  
asif
Junior Member (Idle past 4210 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 02-01-2008


Message 104 of 144 (455597)
02-12-2008 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by bluescat48
02-12-2008 10:27 PM


I am sorry I have work to do as well. It took me all this time just to read about Trilobites and am still reading more about it , there is a lot of info. I am sorry if I sound as hit and run but I cant dedicate more then 30 mins - 45 mins to read and with that much time it takes a long while to read.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by bluescat48, posted 02-12-2008 10:27 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by nator, posted 02-13-2008 7:43 AM asif has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 105 of 144 (455629)
02-13-2008 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by asif
02-12-2008 11:46 PM


I still think you are probably stalling
Look, the wiki page on extinction is only a page. The trilobite wiki is only a page.

You don't need to read the entire giant trilobite website to understand that there are ten orders, five thousand genera and seventeen thousand species.

You must have realized by now that it is the fossil record which has provided that evidence.

Those two points were the only reason I sent you to those websites, so I think it is time for you to either concede that 17,000 species of trilobites exist and that all of them are now exitinct, or tell me why you don't concede.

What I'd really like to get back to even more is the basics, which consists of what you believethe Theory of Evolution to be.

It is my belief that you do not have an accurate idea of what it is and what it claims, so any evidence we provide will be useless unless and until you are clear about what it is.

I would be happy to provide a definition for you and answer any questions you might have.

So please, asif, let's start at the begining, with the theory iteself, so that the work you and I do to follow isn't wasted.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy

"What we need is not the will to believe but the will to find out." - Bertrand Russell

"Man's greatest asset is the unsettled mind." - Isaac Asimov

"We not only believe what we see, to some extent we see what we believe
...The implications of our beliefs are frightening." - Richard Gregory


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by asif, posted 02-12-2008 11:46 PM asif has not yet responded

  
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