If you believe in god, you have to believe in leprechauns.

quote:

---

Then my follow up question would be why do you choose your particular inconsistent belief over all the others? Is it, for you, somehow superior and if so, why?

---

I think it is a silly question, asking why people aren't consistently inconsistent. If one is already inconsistent, what is the damage of continuing in one's own inconsistency by picking and choosing which deities or supernatural creatures to believe in? As an analogy, it is like asking a UFO expert why he believes in gray UFO's instead of pink UFO's.My understanding, as an agnostic (or an atheist according to crashfrog) and former christian, is that one is not logically able to differentiate between the existence of little green irishmen and Yahweh. This is why christianity is based on faith, not on evidence, logic, or proofs. I think this is why Jar gladly admits that it is inconsitent, since his faith is an important factor that allows him to be inconsistent.

quote:

---

Faith is the knowlege of things which are not seen which are true.

---

Actually, faith is the belief that something is true in the absence of knowledge derived through evidence.

quote:

---

You don't need proof to have faith.

---

Well, of course you don't need proof. If you had proof you wouldn't need faith. Faith is a belief in something without proof.

quote:

---

I have personally experienced God's love, devotion, and prescence. God is real, even though you have decided that you need tangible proof.

---

And that is often the evidence that christians rely on. However, it is subjective evidence since those experiences can only be experienced by you. I am not saying you are wrong to believe in God, or that you are an irrational, brainless, religious sycophant. This type of evidence is good enough for you, that's fine. What you have to realize is that not everyone relies on this type of evidence to judge what is truth and what is not.

quote:

---

You want tangible proof? The earth.

---

I can use the same argument to prove that aliens exist. Did aliens create the Earth? Yes. Therefore, the earth is proof that aliens exist. There is nothing in your argument that would separate the Christian God from any other deity, even dieties I can cook up at a moments notice. This is the whole point of this topic. There is nothing that you can show me that would prove the existence of the Christian God and ONLY the Christian God. That is where faith comes in, belief in the existence of God without evidence that, first, He exists, and second, that no other supernatural beings exist.

quote:

---

A question for everyone. Are Mormons technically Christians?

---

I don't think there is an official committee that decides who's in and who's out of the christian realm. They call themselves christians, so I guess that makes them christians. They are called "The Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints". Since they believe in Jesus Christ that would make them Christians.

quote:

---

I don't think that you have to accept my experience, but someday you may just experience that as well, so be warned.

---

I think you hit the nail on the head. A belief in God is not a consequence of evidence that we can touch, taste, smell, or see. A belief in God is derived from personal feelings that can not be transferred between two minds. It can be described vocally, but woefully so.The next problem is that some people don't trust their feelings or experiences. Drugs such as LSD can make us experience things that aren't real, but seem so at the time. Chemical imbalances in the brain can cause feelings of euphoria, paranoia, or God like self grandeur. How do I know I am not just fooling myself? Again, I can't know. But this is my own doubt, something I can't explain or have you experience along with me just as your experiences of God. Religion and religious experiences will always remain as articles of faith. It isn't a bad thing, just something that man will never be able to describe in scientific terms.

quote:

---

Just so you know, I believe in aliens. Not Martians, there is no proof of that and I doubt there ever will be, but I do believe that there are other races of people out there in our universe, maybe even galaxy, but solar system? I don't really think so, because we haven't found any trace of them. That is something I do need visible, tangible evidence for, because unlike a supernatural being, God, life forms are matter. God, I believe is also matter, but in a different way that is very hard to explain, sort of one of those unexplainable things. I know I will be attacked for that, so please don't.

---

I won't attack you, I swear. But you do see the difference between supporting something with evidence and faith based beliefs, don't you? For instance, if I believed with all of my heart that there were aliens on Mars would that make it true? I think we can both agree that it would not make it true.Through all of the discussions here, I hope that you understand that I don't want to make you stop believing in God. My only purpose here is to dispel the myth that atheists and agnostics deny the existence of God out of spite. It is quite the opposite. When was the last time you saw an atheist missionary? We aren't out to get you, so relax and (hopefully) enjoy our discussions here in our little corner of the internet.

quote:

---

Are you talking about proving God exists or evidence that God might exist? You seem to use the terms interchangably but they are quite different.

---

Terms are often vague, sorry for any confusion.When I talk of "proof" I am talking about physical, objective evidence. For instance, I can prove that the Empire State Building is sch and such high. I can prove that helium is lighter than Earth's atmosphere. I can't "prove" that God exists with the same type of evidence, nor can I "prove" that he doesn't. In the same vein, I can't prove or disprove that Leperchauns exist. Evidence is what allows one to prove something. Since no evidence exists one way or the other, faith is used as a tool for discerning TRUTH.Other's may claim that their emotional experiences are evidence of God's existence. However, emotional experiences or personal revelations are not truly evidence of anything but they may be used to construct personal truths. I am not saying that personal revelations or religious experiences don't happen, but they are woefully inadequate for discerning objective reality.Any clearer?

quote:

---

I know that your disbelief in God, is not out of spite, I think it is just purely that you haven't had an experience that causes you to believe in God. I have, so I'll believe in Him, but I don't want to force you to. I only hope that what you feel is right, is what you'll follow.
Just to reassure you.

---

The bigger question is whether or not the same experience you had would be enough for me to ignore what doubt I have. I think it is more of a question of trust than experience, or I could be completely out of my mind.