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Author Topic:   When was the Tower of Babel Made?
defenderofthefaith
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 56 (53985)
09-05-2003 5:48 AM


I take it that the evolutionary model is a tree, whereby all languages come from original grunts and animal noises. Many of you may think the creation model is a lawn, with all languages starting straight off at Babel, but actually it's more of an orchard. Several language groups were created by God at Babel. Over time, as groups spread out, different dialects became entirely different tongues. I was looking at a book on old Anglo-Saxon the other day and I found that a certain form (past participle?) of "to become" was identical to its equivalent in modern German. In fact I've heard English referred to as "Low German".
This just goes to show that the farther back in time you go, the closer languages get together. However, there are no (historical) links between different language groups.
In Maori (language of first New Zealanders) the word for fish is "ika", somewhat similar to the Greek "ichthyos". There is a theory that Maori originally came from the Egyptian region, which would explain any influences of that area. "Ra" is the Maori word for sun.
crashfrog, I posted an answer to the population question on another forum a while back. As soon as I have the energy to go find it I'll copy my mathematics on a new thread in, say, the "Bible Accuracy and Inerrancy" forum.

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 09-05-2003 5:57 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 17 of 56 (53987)
09-05-2003 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by defenderofthefaith
09-05-2003 5:48 AM


I posted an answer to the population question on another forum a while back. As soon as I have the energy to go find it I'll copy my mathematics on a new thread in, say, the "Bible Accuracy and Inerrancy" forum.
No rush. In all honesty I'm not enough of a statitician to address it as confidently as I would like so you might not find it a fruitful discussion, at least from me. On the other hand I imagine there's many here who would be more than qualified to address it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by defenderofthefaith, posted 09-05-2003 5:48 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

dragonstyle18
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 56 (54151)
09-06-2003 5:26 AM


towe of babel is old
Seeing as how Genesis chronologies are very incomplete, I would assume that the tower of Babel would have to have been built sometime just before the migration of humans to different continents via land bridges between 20 and 30 thousand years ago.

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by John, posted 09-06-2003 11:02 AM dragonstyle18 has replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 56 (54169)
09-06-2003 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by dragonstyle18
09-06-2003 5:26 AM


Re: towe of babel is old
Humans were not building monolithic structures like towers 30,000 years ago.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by dragonstyle18, posted 09-06-2003 5:26 AM dragonstyle18 has replied

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dragonstyle18
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 56 (54184)
09-06-2003 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by John
09-06-2003 11:02 AM


Re: towe of babel is old
We don't know that for sure. Also, it may not have been that high anyway, it was the intent of the builders that set off God, not because they were actually going to reach heaven or something

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by John, posted 09-06-2003 11:02 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by John, posted 09-06-2003 4:19 PM dragonstyle18 has not replied
 Message 22 by doctrbill, posted 09-06-2003 4:22 PM dragonstyle18 has replied
 Message 23 by Brian, posted 09-06-2003 4:44 PM dragonstyle18 has replied
 Message 25 by Yaro, posted 09-06-2003 6:05 PM dragonstyle18 has replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 56 (54203)
09-06-2003 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by dragonstyle18
09-06-2003 2:53 PM


Re: towe of babel is old
quote:
We don't know that for sure.
For all intents and purposes, we do know for sure. A tower would not only leave a huge footprint, but a structure like a tower would also require an organized to fund it. That would leave a footprint as well. There were not many people around 30k ago either.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by dragonstyle18, posted 09-06-2003 2:53 PM dragonstyle18 has not replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 22 of 56 (54206)
09-06-2003 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by dragonstyle18
09-06-2003 2:53 PM


John writes:
Humans were not building monolithic structures like towers 30,000 years ago.
dragonstyle18 writes:
We don't know that for sure.
Perhaps. But we do know something about the timing of the Tower of Babel.
quote:
"The only indication of the time at which the Tower of Babel was erected, we find in the name of Phaleg (Genesis 11:10-17), the grandnephew of Heber; this places the date somewhere between 101 and 870 years after the Flood. The limits are so unsatisfactory, because the Greek Version differs in its numbers from the Massoretic text."
Excerpted from CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tower of Babel
This needs to be viewed together with Genesis 10:25, which in the Living Bible reads:
quote:
Two sons were born to Eber: Peleg (meaning "Division," for during his lifetime the people of the world were separated and dispersed), and Joktan (Peleg's brother).
What do you make of this?
BTW. Phaleg and Peleg are simply two alternative transliterations of the same Hebrew name.
------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by dragonstyle18, posted 09-06-2003 2:53 PM dragonstyle18 has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 33 by dragonstyle18, posted 09-06-2003 6:33 PM doctrbill has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 23 of 56 (54209)
09-06-2003 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by dragonstyle18
09-06-2003 2:53 PM


HI,
I have studied a few archaeological surveys of Jericho and it is considered one of the world's oldest cities. It is dated to around 10 000 BCE. The ruins are not impressive, and it is difficult to imagine that a project the size that Babel would needed to have been could have been attempted before that. Even if the tower was only a few feet high, as John said, its foundations would have left a massive footprint in the archaeological record.
If you are taking the biblical account, you really are looking at 4500 years ago at most, as the tower story was post deluvian.
My own opinion of Babel, is that it is an etiological tale about a ruined ziggurat found by some wandering nomads.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by dragonstyle18, posted 09-06-2003 2:53 PM dragonstyle18 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by dragonstyle18, posted 09-06-2003 6:16 PM Brian has replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 24 of 56 (54210)
09-06-2003 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by defenderofthefaith
09-05-2003 5:34 AM


defenderofthefaith writes:
I cannot find which precisely were the clean ones (before the Flood). Your original question was how they would have enough clean animals; but God specifically says that they can eat any moving thing upon the earth - Genesis 9:3.
Try Leviticus 11 for a listing of clean versus unclean animals (for eating purposes). I know that leaves the question of pre-flood dietary rules. Gen. 1:29 is the only text I know in reference to this question.
Mention of clean versus unclean food animals suggests to me that the story of Noah has been edited with the Law of Moses in mind. Furthermore, the subsequent statement, to which you allude, seems to nullify the previous concern with loading "clean" animals on the ark.
I'm glad you pointed up Gen. 9:3. I had never considered this text before. Seems it to put a crimp in the stuffy dietary laws of Moses, eh?
------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 25 of 56 (54214)
09-06-2003 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by dragonstyle18
09-06-2003 2:53 PM


Re: the flood was when?
Hmmmm....
The intent of the builders you say?
Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top [may reach] unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Funny, dosn't look like the builders were doing anything wrong. They were all happy that they were united and a capable people, the tower was gonna be tall and symbolize them.
You could say it was arogance, but God makes no mention of that. Instead he says:
"and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."
Sounds more like he's afraid of all the things humans can do when they are unified, and anything they wish will come to them. So God screws em up in an arbitrarily concived scheem to stay in power, and thwart human unity.
So we could safely say, that the reason the world is in such turmoil to day is because God destroyd our sense of unity all the way back in the tower of Bable. Before that event we were capable of working together to achive anything we wanted, after it, we were reduced to a bunch of quibbling madmen.
Nice going God!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by dragonstyle18, posted 09-06-2003 2:53 PM dragonstyle18 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by dragonstyle18, posted 09-06-2003 6:11 PM Yaro has replied

dragonstyle18
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 56 (54215)
09-06-2003 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Yaro
09-06-2003 6:05 PM


Re: the flood was when?
It was arrogance because it was against God's decree which was for humans to spread across the world and populate it after the flood. This symbolized their disobedience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Yaro, posted 09-06-2003 6:05 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Yaro, posted 09-06-2003 6:14 PM dragonstyle18 has replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 27 of 56 (54216)
09-06-2003 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by dragonstyle18
09-06-2003 6:11 PM


Re: the flood was when?
Were does it say that? All God says is that like this, they can accomplish anything they imagine. Were does God say it is against his decree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by dragonstyle18, posted 09-06-2003 6:11 PM dragonstyle18 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by dragonstyle18, posted 09-06-2003 6:18 PM Yaro has replied

dragonstyle18
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 56 (54218)
09-06-2003 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Brian
09-06-2003 4:44 PM


The tower of babel was not in Jericho. See Genesis 11:1.
Also it does not specify what happened to the tower itself. It could have been competely destroyed. It doesn't say other than the building was stopped and alot can happen in 20-30 thousand years. Don't you think a project like that having been abandoned would have been stripped for parts and materials. Of course, what is the need for preservation.
Also to John, the project was organized and there isn't any way to say there was not enough people as we don't know any of the dimensions of the building so who can say what is and what is not enough.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Brian, posted 09-06-2003 4:44 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by John, posted 09-06-2003 6:50 PM dragonstyle18 has replied
 Message 38 by Brian, posted 09-06-2003 6:58 PM dragonstyle18 has not replied

dragonstyle18
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 56 (54219)
09-06-2003 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Yaro
09-06-2003 6:14 PM


Re: the flood was when?
It is specifically decreed in Genesis 8:16 right after the flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Yaro, posted 09-06-2003 6:14 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
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dragonstyle18
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 56 (54220)
09-06-2003 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by doctrbill
09-06-2003 4:22 PM


quote
"The only indication of the time at which the Tower of Babel was erected, we find in the name of Phaleg (Genesis 11:10-17), the grandnephew of Heber; this places the date somewhere between 101 and 870 years after the Flood. The limits are so unsatisfactory, because the Greek Version differs in its numbers from the Massoretic text."
All that says is how far after the flood was Babel. I'm saying the flood was 20-30 thousand years ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by doctrbill, posted 09-06-2003 4:22 PM doctrbill has not replied

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