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Author
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Topic: The power of prayers vs. The Divine plan
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Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member
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Message 256 of 267 (138040)
08-30-2004 8:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
08-30-2004 3:54 AM
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To Phatboy: For the love of all that's blue and perpetually spinning, have you read anything on this thread? The combined assumptions of omnipotence, omniscience, and sole-creator of the Christian God disallow the notion of meaningful free will - yet Christian belief holds that all the above assumptions plus free will must co-exist. Thus there exists a contradiction.
"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 255 by Phat, posted 08-30-2004 3:54 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18346 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Thread synopsis
Sleeping Dragon writes: I would like to start off by challenging the purpose of prayers..... Do prayers work?...that prayers (supposedly) can somehow change the course of real, physical events. But from our perspective in a finite point of time continum, we are in no position to determine how the future should or should not have been. Further, prayers themselves do not change the course...God can. If He did, how would we ever know if He did or He did not?
1. God(s) possess the ability to (and indeed, did) create the universe from nothingness, and also the ability to change anything in this world. (Omnipotent)
2. God(s) possess absolute knowledge of the past, present, and future. (Omniscience)
I agree. But to Him, prayers are communion and communication rather than notes and directions. His communion with us allows for our trust and faith in a future we do not see. If we are with Him moment by moment, this fact alone is one reason for hope at any given point along the time continum. We are with Him...thus...no worries! I will agree with you that we do not have an infinite free will along the continum. If we decide to trust/submit to Him, we give up that free will. The Divine Plan is fullfilled. If we deny Him, our free will is fullfilled. Thus...both cannot happen to us as humans, yet both will happen to humanity as a whole. Some will choose the Divine Plan....others will choose free will.
spirit man writes: How does a divine plan eliminate free will? My analogy was made to show how we can still have free will whether God gets involved or not. He says if we have free will then God doesn't exist. But I have shown that free will and God can exist with the analogy - therefore his premise may not be faulty, but his indications most definately are. It is a major assumption to conclude that free will = No God. The bible says that free will is intact, along with God. Christ laid down his life of free will. The decision to believe in him is free will. Jonah had free will, yet God coaxed him back to the correct path. Indeed, free will does not mean no God, not according to the bible anyway. Now also, Abraham was told to slay Izaac, and he chose to do it as God commanded, yet God stopped him from doing it. God wanted Abraham to make a choice, he wanted to see if Abraham had faith through free will. Christ laid down His free will. Jonah was indeed coaxed away from his free will to Gods Divine Plan. You are right that Abraham had faith through his free will which was counted as righteousness. Cynic1 writes: There is also the fact that you start with the assumption that God is omniscient, and thus there is no free will. This is fine, but there are those who start with the assumption that there is free will, and thus God is not omniscient (at least as far as it pertains to knowledge of the future). Or perhaps because He granted us free will, he has no divine plan for us. It really just depends on which assumption you want to start with. I would start with the latter assumption. Free Will precedes individual knowledge of God. As far as God being responsible....lets assume He is. Big Deal. Does this mean that we are innocent? I think not. We too have reasoniong and decision making capabilities....do you really want to pick a fight with your Creator? If so, go for it! I am NOT responsible for that one!
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Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member
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Message 258 of 267 (138347)
08-31-2004 2:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 257 by Phat
08-30-2004 12:36 PM
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To Phatboy: Thank you for oyur reply. Reply to your post:
But from our perspective in a finite point of time continum, we are in no position to determine how the future should or should not have been. Further, prayers themselves do not change the course...God can. If He did, how would we ever know if He did or He did not? Instead of answering this now, I'll delay this for a day and ask something from you: Can you summarise my arguments? I just want to make sure that you know and understood what I have argued (and that you have read the OP) instead of blurting out questions to sound intelligent.
I will agree with you that we do not have an infinite free will along the continum. If we decide to trust/submit to Him, we give up that free will. The Divine Plan is fullfilled. If we deny Him, our free will is fullfilled. Thus...both cannot happen to us as humans, yet both will happen to humanity as a whole. Christ laid down His free will. Jonah was indeed coaxed away from his free will to Gods Divine Plan. You are right that Abraham had faith through his free will which was counted as righteousness. You're using an entirely different definition of free-will and this will eventually lead to equivocation. Can you define free will for me please?
As far as God being responsible....lets assume He is. Big Deal. Does this mean that we are innocent? I think not. Responsible, in this case, means "responsible for making something go according to plan". In other words, if God is responsible for creating me such that I will kill someone, then I am not responsible.
do you really want to pick a fight with your Creator? If so, go for it! I am NOT responsible for that one! It's comments like these that makes me lose my last shred of respect for you. Patiently awaiting your reply.
"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 257 by Phat, posted 08-30-2004 12:36 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 259 by Phat, posted 08-31-2004 5:39 AM | | Sleeping Dragon has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18346 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Here we go again!
Sleeping Dragon writes: Can you define free will for me please? The ability to choose our course of action. Even if our course is foreknown, we will never experience it that way...thus, we cannot argue with a God outside of our time restraints.
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Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member
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Message 260 of 267 (138379)
08-31-2004 9:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 259 by Phat
08-31-2004 5:39 AM
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To Phatboy: Thank you for your reply. Reply to your post:
The ability to choose our course of action. Even if our course is foreknown, we will never experience it that way...thus, we cannot argue with a God outside of our time restraints. Example: I give you a pair of loaded dice. You do not know that they are loaded (they always give a sum of 7, no matter how many times you roll). I ask you to roll it once, and once only. If you get a sum of 8 or above, I will not kill you. If you get a sum of 7 or below, I will kill you. Do you have free will? Patiently awaiting your reply.
"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 259 by Phat, posted 08-31-2004 5:39 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 261 by Phat, posted 08-31-2004 1:16 PM | | Sleeping Dragon has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18346 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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sleeping dragon writes: I give you a pair of loaded dice. You do not know that they are loaded (they always give a sum of 7, no matter how many times you roll). I ask you to roll it once, and once only. If you get a sum of 8 or above, I will not kill you. If you get a sum of 7 or below, I will kill you.
1) You ask me or tell me to roll them? If you ask, I might refuse. Kinda like a person who refuses to commit to a possible God whom they consider as uncertain or untrustable. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-31-2004 12:22 PM
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Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member
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Message 262 of 267 (138485)
08-31-2004 1:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 261 by Phat
08-31-2004 1:16 PM
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To Phatboy: So you see yet you don't see. Interesting. Choosing not to roll means suicide, by the way.
"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 261 by Phat, posted 08-31-2004 1:16 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 263 by Phat, posted 08-31-2004 1:24 PM | | Sleeping Dragon has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18346 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Choosing not to believe is a form of suicide as well, according to staunch believers. I give God credit for being overly fair, however. He is no mean God in my belief paradigm.
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Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member
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Message 264 of 267 (138490)
08-31-2004 1:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 263 by Phat
08-31-2004 1:24 PM
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To Phatboy: Well, under Determinism, God is responsible for our choice in not believing as well. That, too, is fate.
"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 263 by Phat, posted 08-31-2004 1:24 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 265 by Phat, posted 08-31-2004 4:59 PM | | Sleeping Dragon has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18346 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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A new can of worms....
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: DeterminismThat is where I looked for a definition. Interesting that they maintain that determinism is fatal to the doctorine of sin. Similar to Calvanism, whereby our lives are preordained.
Catholic Encyclopedia writes: We shall best apprehend Calvin's master-thought if we liken it to modern systems of the Unconscious, or of physical predetermination, wherein all effects lie folded up, as it were, in one First Cause, and their development in time is necessitated. Effects are thus mere manifestations, not fresh acts, or in any way due to free will choosing its own course. Nature, grace, revelation, Heaven, and Hell do but show us different aspects of the eternal energy which works in all things. There is no free will outside the Supreme. Well, perhaps you are right in that there is no true free will. Interesting lesson.
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Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member
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Message 266 of 267 (138674)
08-31-2004 11:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 265 by Phat
08-31-2004 4:59 PM
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To Phatboy: *Champagne cork popping* Here, have a glass - congradulate the two of us on reaching agreement. According to my argument, the assumptions of the Christian God lead inevitably to determinism, and therefore the notion of free will in Christianity is but a false premise. If you read Crash Frog's posts on this thread, you'll see that other possibilities (multi-verse or multi-dimension) may explain the discrepancy, yet those are not common assumptions made by Christians. Have a nice day.
"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 265 by Phat, posted 08-31-2004 4:59 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 267 by Phat, posted 09-01-2004 4:13 PM | | Sleeping Dragon has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18346 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Champagne dreams
Well, thanks for the bubbly! I have not really plunged into the philosophical arguments on free will vs determinism, but I just read one of them and it leads me to more questions...so...maybe another topic, another time. Cheers. BTW here is what I read: http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/swartz/freewill1.htm
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