Did Adam and eve really have a choice?

When God created he surveyed all he had made and said "it is good" This is a hint that there was nothing flawed about it. Designing someone who can make a choice is not a flaw in the design (or the designer). It is a risk. When someone chooses to love someone else they expose themselves to the potential that the person will hurt them. A beloved wife can run off with another man for example. God took that risk in creating Adam and Eve with choice. And he knew the outcome before it happened.Some questions:You imply that Gods ability to know the outcome affects the outcome. All God employs is foreknowledge. How do you tie forknowledge of the choice that will be made by a being you've designed to have the ability to make own choices - to the idea that the design ensured the choice wasn't actually one?As asked before. If Adam and Eve had chosen not to disobey God, your argument equally states that Adam and Eve were pre-destined by God, by his design, to obey him. He would have had foreknowledge of this choice too. Disobey or obey - neither can be made with free choice you are arguing. What you are saying that God cannot make a being with free choice.But why not? What influence could God not prevent himself having on the design which would render it impossible to achieve his goal. Foreknowledge isn't itWhy he would chose to proceed along this path knowing all the consequences is a further question. The question you ask is whether Adam and Eve had choice at all.Lets address that.Good weekend

We're progressing: knowledge and understanding through discussion God knew the wrong choice would be made. He had the power to prevent that choice being made. The question is how would he do that? Patently, not giving a choice would be one way: don't put the tree there in the first place. But you may agree that in order to have choice a genuine choice must be provided. Knowledge of good and evil serves pretty well.Now Adam and Eve only knew what it was like to have 'good' as there was no evil then. But they wouldn't have known that good was good unless they has something to compare it with - it's opposite. That's what knowledge of good and evil achieved. Notice how they came to know they were naked after the fall. They weren't aware of it before.They had a choice in that they could simply trust God, in a childlike way, when he said 'don't eat' ie: chose to remain dependant on God or they could choose to be independant of God and let follow their own path. In choosing their own path they accomplished choice for all mankind. All mankind has knowledge of good and evil now. And we too will chose. Adam and Eve were born dependant on God and choose independance. Everyone else is born independant from God and can choose dependance.You say God had the power to prevent it but how? How do you provide choice without providing choice? More and more knowledge of consequences to the point of making a choice for God a dead-cert is not true choice. God found it sufficient to say 'don't + consequences' We could talk about what they understood by death etc for ever. We'd be speculating though. Suffice that what God said was a barrier express by Eve which Satan had to overcome. Had God put up more barriers by explaining consequence then Satan would have put up more arguement than he did. God's command and Satans deceit had to balance each other in order, in the end, to leave the free choice with A&E (A&E - Accident and Emergency - kind of fitting )The key is to try and think of an alternative which obtains the goal (free choice in order that total love becomes possible). How else could God have achieved this? If one can't think of an alternative then maybe one can see that for all the downsides, this was the only way it could be.Very much follows from this point of Fall. If it is understood then much else of Gods plan of salvation will fall into place. You won't ever believe in God of the Bible by figuring out the story and giving it intellectual assent. There is only one way to believe in God and God is the one who does it. He gives you faith in him - you don't work it up by yourself. You can't. How you arrive at that point varies from person to person but common to all 'testimonies' is Goddidit. The only role you play (possibly) is to ask him to do it...and how you ask can vary from person to person

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Salvation by works in another guise. Choose good and God will be pleased...and vice versa. Something which every Religion in the world (including Judasim) has in common. God of the weighing scalesLuckily for us, it's total hogwash. God saves filthy, manky, greasy dirty sinners not 'good' people. Salvation has nothing at all to do with 'being good', going to church, praying, giving to the poor.It ain't about following laws. It never was and never will be

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Only in a flawed world is there necessity for shades of meaning such as good, better, best. God is good, he doesn't need other words to qualify this. Good is just good when your talking God "in him there is no darkness at all" God is love is the same thing. It's not necessary to add "stupifyingly, brilliant and fantastic love. Just love will do. 'Absolute' is about the best way if you have to adjectivize Gods qualities: love, beauty, wrath etc into the human realm. "With God all things (that are possible) are possible"

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

What if some sheep herder up the side of a mountain in Tibet never hears of a book called the bible or the God therein described? Is he doomed because of it? Not in the least.You have a conscience Brian, we all have. That is a communication device open to all. God calls - he speaks to you personally. It's about whether or not you respond to that call. Note the call is an 'ought to do' call not 'must do' call. God will never interfere in your free choice. And it's not about trying to follow your conscience all the time - you won't be able. God sees your heart and its there where everything happens - not intellectualising it. How could anyone read the bible and suppose it was true - there are too many obstacles to that?Gods method is to convict a person of sin. To show them that they are a sinner. That's the key thing. He doesn this through conscience and through his word. It's not about you understanding by your own power. He convicts you of it. How you respond it what matters. Me? I was touched by God in a serious way 10 years before I became a believer. I chose to ignore it. But he is persistant (because he want none to perish). It is by persistant ignoring and failing to acknowledge his call that a person "hardens their heart" to him. This is potentialy lethal because the call falls on increasing (self-deafened) ears.Luckily it is not your intellect that holds you away from God. It doesn't matter that you have intellectual problems with believing God. How could you have anything else? It is heart God is dealing with and he knows your heart despite what your intellect says. He knows if deep down you are troubled by your own sin. He knows if you struggle with stuff that you hate doing but can't seem to help doing. He knows if your heart yearns for him - even if you don't know it's him you yearn for. This is God Brian, he operates in ways beyond your understanding.Heart...that's were its at. And he sees all hearts - whether they want him to or not.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Thought we'd gone past that. How does God knowing the choice that will be made influence the choice that will be made? I asked already: if God had taken measures to explain the full consequences of that choice so as to make it more likely that satans tempting wouldn't be listened to, has he not interfered with the choice? If whatever actions God took were such so as to equal satans effect then the choice was perfectly balanced...and came down to A&E's themselves. Any imbalance on Gods part (or satans) would mean the dice was loaded.I ask again: if they had chosen 'correctly', would God not be accused of loading the dice here too. In which circumstances can God give someone a free choice if no matter what they chose is seen by you to be a loaded dice. God set the conditions for TWO situations not one. Perfect relationship or not. He started out a giving perfect not the other way around. He lavished on them. In giving them the choice he set up conditions for choice.How could God give choice if there was nothing to chose from. His very giving of a choice is being used by you to say there was none. That they chose what they chose is being used by you to say the dice was loaded. But any choice would result in the same charge being laid. That's not reasonable....And your forgetting one vital thing. God sacrificed his own Son (think your own child if you have one - only imagine the level of love you have is a thousandfold that which you have) in order that the situation (our fallen-ness) could be redeemed. If God could have come up with a solution whereby he could give choice but not give choice he would have avoided all the pain he felt taking this action. That he didn't means he couldn't. God can no more resolve a true paradox that you or I can.This message has been edited by iano, 26-Sep-2005 08:26 PM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Crevo: lets try get at least a bit out of the way.In the above quote you would be right. On what basis though do you decide that the choice was pre-determined, ie: there was no choice in fact?(I cant' see your point about foreknowledge=predeterming choice. Can you explain how one implies the other)(neither can I see 'insufficent data about consequence' implying it. If God supplied more data would not satan tempt harder. If God loads the dice against temptation then where is the choice?)This message has been edited by iano, 26-Sep-2005 09:38 PM

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Once there were two nuns..One of them was known as Sister Mathematical (SM), and the other one was known as Sister Logical (SL).It is getting dark and they are still far away from the convent.SM: Have you noticed that a man has been following us for the past thirty-eight and a half minutes? I wonder what he wants.SL: It's logical. He wants to rape us.SM: Oh, no! At this rate he will reach us in 15 minutes at the most! What can we do?SL: The only logical thing to do of course is to walk faster.SM: It's not working.SL: Of course it's not working. The man did the only logical thing. He started to walk faster, too.SM: So, what shall we do? At this rate he will reach us in one minute.SL: The only logical thing we can do is split up. You go that way and I'll go this way. He cannot follow us both.So the man decided to follow Sister Logical.Sister Mathematical arrives at the convent and is worried about what has happened to Sister LogicalThen Sister Logical arrives.SM: Sister Logical! Thank God you are here! Tell me what happened!SL: The only logical thing happened. The man couldn't follow us both, so he followed me.SM : Yes, yes! But what happened then?SL: The only logical thing happened. I started to run as fast as I could and he started to run as fast as he could.SM: And?SL: The only logical thing happened. He reached me.SM: Oh, dear! What did you do?SL: The only logical thing to do. I lifted my dress up.SM: Oh, Sister! What did the man do?SL: The only logical thing to do. He pulled down his pants.SM: Oh, no! What happened then?SL : Isn't it logical, Sister? A nun with her dress up can run faster than man with his pants down.And for those of you who thought it would be dirty,Say two Hail Marys!

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

It's not all spot on (ie: he created satan but satan wasn't created evil - he too fell) but no matter...God created the circumstances where there COULD be a fall. This is subtley and vitally different. "Could be" means choice. Knowing there would be, frustrating as it may appear (I do understand...I was in the same position as you)...does not affect the ability to chose. There is nothing about foreknowledge which means the result was a set up, pre-determined, foregone conclusion etc.God could have set up the fall alright but like I say, the fall doesn't mean set up to fall. Consider the following:When a person turns to God their sins are forgiven. God choses to forget all about them. God can chose to put my sin "as far as the east is from the west". It is no problem for God to set up a perfectly fair choice yet know the resultAnd choice is so critical Crevo. Everything rolls out from here... so....Night

One of the temptations that Satan used on Eve was "you will become like God" The Fall can be subtitled by the sentence "man wanted to be independant of God"What is 'good'? Is it mans definiton that counts or Gods?. Definition of evil? Mans definition or Gods? Choice. What is that word? Is it Gods definition or mans that counts. In all cases it must be Gods definition. We cannot say our definition is a more correct or truer one than his. He knows all the facets which make up these things. We don'tWhatever way Goddidit in giving us the ability to chose that's the way he did it. If there were consequences for that choice - as he defines choice, then that's the way he did it. There is, you would probably agree, absolutely no point in disagreeing or arguing with God about it.Man however, being his own god, does precisely that. That is the Olt Testament in a nutshell. Man displaying his desire to be independant of God. Man says things like "If that's the way God did it then I spit in his face" But that's ridiculous. If God said that was the way it is then thats the way it is. Shake you fist all you like it doesn't change the fact that what he says and did matters - not what you want. You may want to be independant of God but that is NOT a choice you get to make.If God found it sufficient to give us choice - on his terms - then that's the choice we have. There is a section in the new testement in which man is told that if God wanted to created creatures simply for destruction so that the creatures he choses to save would be realise how thankful they should be then who is man to say "that's not fair"? God defines whats fair - not man.As to your point: nobody has even shown how foreknowledge of something influences the choice. The reason being that nobody knows what foreknowledge of choice would actually entail. Nobody, but God knows that situation to say he HAD to influence the result. On the other handI ask you to pick a number, either 1 or 2. It can be only one of the two that you pick. I don't know what your going to pick. Your choice.Then, before you chose, I get foreknowledge as to your choice. How is your choice affected by that knowledge?

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

God disciplines those who he loves. 'Bad' things can happen by God withholding his ability (providence) to prevent them happening. Pain is used by God for good. Obvious examples are sticking your hand in a fire or a toothache. Other pain might not have as immediately obvious benefit as these but as the saying goes, no pain no gain.Trawl through Christian testimonies (my first post for example) will often reveal a common denomintor: pain. It might be physical, psycological, emotional whatever....pain tends to get your attention. And God does want to get our attention. If Gods goal is to make us realise our dependance on him would that be achieved in a world where there was no pain, or discomfort or unhappiness.He didn't make it this way but you bet he will use it to achieve his goal.Sheesh....you don't know what your missing. If your thinking "what a delusional sap falling for that old fairytale", realise I had 38 years of the other. And it's that which is the fairytale. Note that I'm in a position to compare. Are you?I wish you were. You would never (and could never) go back. Thank God

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

What is any disobedience to any instruction or law but operating independantly of whatever the instruction or law was meant to achieve. If one is dependant on something one will operate according to it not own ideas. One will subject oneself to its terms and conditions. If I want my motorbike to stop I obey the law which says "pull the lever" Or I can operate independantly of that law. A&E disobeyed. They acted independantly of God merely by disobeying God.One swallow doesn't make a summer, granted. But it's not like the idea of independance from God isn't adequately covered elsewhere in the Bible. It's a bit of a recurring theme throughout...

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Hi Mod,A good analogy of pre-destination and shows there is no choice in fact except for a complicated way of getting a particular number to arise. This would mean that God went through an apparently complicated process to achieve a result which was predetermined by him without us playing any part at allIt could well be the case. Except it makes no sense of anything. It makes the world and everything in it non-sensical as far as we are concerned. Determinism in other words.But it would mean that all the apparent sense the world makes is nonsense. But surely the onus is on the one making the claim to arrive at a sensible rational behind it. Which would appear to be a self-refuting argument. IOW, how can you make a sensible argument that all is non-sensical.

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

"no knowledge"? How does one make an argument from what ISN'T said? God said "The day you eat of the fruit you will surely die" If they had no concept of "die" how so a concept of: "you" "eat" "fruit". The bible doesn't say God thought them these concepts but we may suppose he did in whatever fashion he did.It is interesting to note that this conversation (correctly) makes the assumption that the bible is recording accurately and we're weighing up God in the light of it. Now what else does the bible say if we apply the same rational. Is choice implied all over the place elsewhere. No choice makes no sense of any of the bible so none of it can be used in discussion about this or anything else to do with it. So, how can someone be rationally angry with a machine that does what you've programmed it to do. How does one talk of loving a machine who does what you've programmed it to do. Why would one sacrifice a beloved son for something that the machine was going to do anyway. No senseIf one doesn't know what the evidence proves one way or the other then the next question to ask is in which direction does the evidence lead. Choice makes sense of the bible. No choice nonsense. You pays your money. Biblically everyone is born under the reign of sin and under the control of Satan. All increase in knowledge of his ways...some more eagerly than others though...

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

That would have to be demonstrated. Faith would be a good one to talk to on that. God knew every person who would be born before the creation of the world. He knows how many hairs are on your head at this moment (in my case that isn't so hard but...). God knows when a sparrow falls to the ground. There is no evidence to suggest he didn't know A&E's choice. In fact Jesus as a sacrifice was known before the creation of the world. Since A&E's choice necessitated his sacrifice it follows that their choice was in fact known before it happened

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"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....