Did Adam and eve really have a choice?

(bit of a cut and paste job, Still using some Quotes to illustrate the jist, centering on the main points I think...)regarding the fall:
Following from a previous thread, Christians on this site have given me this impression:
God created adam and Eve, with all their inherant flaws, God recognised these flaws insofar as he knew what choice they would make when approached by the serpent. i.e. He knew that they would fall.My question is:why set this chain of events in motion in the first place if he knew so much sufferring would come from it? why set things up as they were/are when, as an all powerful Creator. He could have tweaked a few things here or there to prevent the Fall and hence all the suffering in the world. He sat Idly by and watched it unfold. How can anyone worship such a being other than through fear of further cruelty? I think someone already used the Battered wife analogy... very apt. Oh but they were.... God knew their weakness... God designed them with this weakness... God placed them in the Garden of Eden with the Tree. God knew what choice they would make... they were pawns in a game, chracters in a play, doomed to play out what had been written. they were most certainly shackled. shackled to the speeding train which would become the trainwreck that is Humanity. If I designed/built the machine and the lotto balls knowing that a certain sequence of numbers would certainly pop out given the right circumstances (which I ensured came about). then it would most certainly affect the outcome. Yes. I believe (within the assumption that genesis is truth) from the moment of Design that choice was removed. there was only one course of action that would happen. God knew this. Yet he still let it happen.
If God is so desperate for our love he could have it, easily. But he chose this world, this way, this humanity. And he seeks to blame us for it.I contend that this God is not a loving God. he is a cruel and sadistic god.

Nope, I'm suggesting that if god Designed us, and God knew we(Adam and Eve) were going to make the wrong choice, he had the power to review that design and prevent the inevitable from happening. he did not. He had the ability to affect the outcome. he did not. See above.... he knew what was coming, had the ability to change it, He didn't. (I'm not talking about removing free will here, what about showing them more clearly what the consequences would be?) I agree. So why set this chain of events in motion? why not let Adam and Eve see fully the consequnces so they could make an informed decision? why have the tree of knowledge? Why set the trap in the first place? and one related to the choice/no choice issue. If I believed in God, the God of the Bible, I would want to know the answers to these questions before I began Worshiping this being. the evidence i see points to an unloving God.

I'm working under the assumption that Genesis is correct, that it actually happened as it is in the Bible in order to better understand how someone who believes this can justify god's actions.If they couldn't have understood the consequences, how on earth (or heaven) could they be expected to make that choice?

I guess I won't hold my breath then :/Still seems to me that God (as per the Bible) had the ability to share his knowledge with us and give us immortality. I know I know... the christians among you will say that is what he gives us if we do right. But why the whole test in eden/life leading to certain hell thing? I'm nnot sure I want to end up swanning round paradise with such a being.If I believe anything at all. It's that we are chemicals and energy, we know (or at least accept) that energy is not destroyed, merely converted from one form to another... I wonder what my energy will do when I die? or if, when you separate energy and chemicals we cease to exist completely. but that's a different thread.

So was there really a choice? Another way would be to inform the Chooser of the consequences. Adam and Eve did not understand death, how could they understand the full consequenses of their Choice. God Seemed keen to give the free will, but still wanted that they blindly accept his demand for obeyance? without giving them an understanding of the consequences of the alternative? what game was he playing? But they had no knowledge of good and evil until AFTER the choice was made.God set the conditions for man's fall he created a situation in which there was no alternative. THERE WAS NO CHOICE. How can you say God gave Adam and Eve a choice, when you are the one pointing out that they in fact had no such choice. I have to agree here.

I can't disregard how it started, that is what we are dicussing here. Who in their right mind would choose a God who knowingly set man up for a fall and condemned us to certain hell?

I'm reluctant to repeat myself, but You're leaving no option: And how does asking them to make an uninformed choice of such magnitude equal balance? the whole thing was unbalanced. God knew what choice would be made, He made them that way, He created the conditions which would lead to that choice How much more unbalanced can you get?
I don't take issue with God loading dice either way, what I take issue with is God creating a situation whereby there was only going to be one outcome and then holding the whole of Humanity responsible for that outcome.
I'll type it again just incase you miss it again:
what I take issue with is God CREATING A SITUATION whereby there was only going to be ONE outcome, and then holding the whole of Humanity responsible for that outcome
(ok.. so I cut/pasted) Read My Posts again. what I've said was that he could have made A&E better informed about the choice they had to make.

I think You're the one actually attatching 'predetermination' to it. that's not quite what I suggest.I don't know how to explain it otherwise to be honest, my fault. But the way I see it (if genesis is to be believed).1)God created Adam and Eve
2)God created the garden, the tree, the serpent.
i.e. he created all the circumstances leading to the fall. He knew what the outcome would be.
therefore I don't think there was a choice in any real sense. it was a foregone conclusion that they would choose a certain path.they did not know death, they did not know evil(or good?). yet they were presented with a choice, the consequences of which they couldn't possibly understand.God has since punished the entire human race for what happened in the garden that day.

I guess we'll have to disagree on that point then.

My heart is a bag of muscle that Pumps oxygenated blood around my body.It follows me.(good job too!)

That's what I've been trying (badly I admit) to get at.Unfortunately it seems I hit 'The Christian Wall'
NONE SHALL PASS!

And Adam and Eve had no knowledge of these concepts. He chose not to inform them of the choice they were about to make. The serpent at least did that.
Does Knowledge=Satan? Now your getting closer... "on his terms". Everything was on his terms... he created everything, I'm reluctant to go round this once more, But I'm not so much saying that the choice was directly affected by the knowledge, merely stateing that if the choice was a forgone conclusion, was it really a choice at all? I don't think so.
I'm losing the will to discuss this any further to be honest. I don't want to repeat my self any more.
I don't believe there ws a choice in any real sense of the word, Not to that the choice was affected or influenced. just that Adam and Eve were playing out God's great Plan, a plan that involved the fall of man, and the eternal punishment of mankind for an ill-informed 'choice', that was a foregone conclusion.i.e. right from the get go, we (as in you and I) were doomed. what chance did we stand? and why are we being punished for something we had absolutely no influence on or control over?
a loving god?
bollocks!(edit: Changed 'he was' to 'they were' in the 1st paragraph)This message has been edited by Creavolution, 09-28-2005 11:16 AM

Precisely... the analogy describes the situation as layed out by you, and backed up by Genesis, which makes no sense... yet you still keep arguing for it? Hang on... Why may we suppose this? who gave you the divine knowledge to interpret this? Genesis says they didn't "know Death" (sorry... can't find the actual quote) and how could they? Nope... I am assuming (for the sake of argument) that a) God Exists in an all knowing and all loving Form, and b) Genesis is truth, then using the 'truth' in genesis to show why I believe the God as described by his actions in genesis could not be all knowing and all loving. I am showing that while the bible supposes god is Love, Genesis shows him not to be Love.
I am putting myself in your position (as a believer) in order to witness the contradiction from the inside, as it were. I am trying to get you to see my point of view, I can only do that if i work within your framework because you dismiss anything outside of that.
I believe I have shown that God (as you describe him) is not a loving god, because he is punishing the whole of mankind for a choice made by someone who was not in any position to make that choice, hence he knew which choice would be made. therefore... I don't believe there ws any real choice at all. IT WAS A FOREGONE CONCLUSION. I believe I and others (Purpleyouko) have adressed that point and questioned whether or not it was a sacrifice at all So you ignore rational argument and just pick the answer that backs you up? the whole point of my argument is that tere was no real choice, thus making a nonsense of the bible. Your rebuttal is to say "well that view is rubbish because it makes the bible look silly" Is that all you got? I'd say I'm surprised but I'm not. Is that the basis for your belief system? simply choosing what fits best? (what am I saying... of course it is.)
seems to me you're ignoreing what's written in the bible. I would say this equates to the illusion of free will. there will, after all, only be one outcome. there is no other possibility. therefore there is no choice. and I've said a few times earlier... it's not so much that foreknowledge 'influences' the choice, but the creation of the environment, the situation, the person making the choice. God created all these so he had total influence on the choice. The mere fact that the choice is foreknown, to me, indicates that there is only one outcome, that there is no alternative, i.e. that there is no choice.

Words have more than one meaning, Literal, metaphorical, abstract, etc. Which do you chose? and when do you decide if a word is literal or metaphorical....etc.? Ok, I believe it states in genesis that god gave them no knowledge of Evil either. thus leaving them completely unprepared for the evil temtations of the serpent. Read the title of the thread please... Choice is the subject of the debate... therefore my argument would be a non event if I assumed it existed from the outset. What shows you that God can? (other than than the bible) You are simply not reading my posts. Lets have it in point form eh?
God created/designed man... yes/no?God created/designed the universe an all within it.....yes/no?God foreknew what 'choice' Eve would make....yes/no?God Foreknows all things...yes/no?As God designed Eve, He designed in the inevitability of her choice... yes/no?If you answer yes to the above thsi surely implies THE RESULT WAS INEVITABLE......THERE WAS ONLY ONE POSSIBLE OUTCOME...... THERE WAS NO ALTERNATIVE OUTCOME..... HOW DOES THIS EQUATE TO A 'CHOICE' IN ANY REAL SENSE?

GOD created the Circumstances, GOD created the players, GOD set the trap (the tree etc). How can you say God didn't set it up to happen? Iano, you've got your GOD-coloured spectacles on here. The origin of this post was in 'Random God rant' where someone asked why God would allow a child to be born with a horrific disease, that would cause them pain and suffering, and then death. The Christain response was basically that the child was being punished for the 'sins' of it's father. So.."God's Standard" is one where an innocent infant is doomed to hell....nice....not a standard i want to subscribe to. And this is where Iano bows out of rational discussion... ' I'm getting nowhere so I'm now going to change or undermine the meaning of the words I use' bye Iano.. ( do you have an understanding of the way God works? Other than your interpretation of the bible? you seem to speak with some Authority on the subject.) I could easily say 'well it depends on your meaning of the word 'debate'... i think debate means 'ice cream' so we're having an Ice cream now...' would be much of an arguing point though would it? Interesting analogy, and close to what I'm saying (again and again) God created ALL the circumstances to such a degree that he knew what the outcome would be.
Please answer me. WHERE IS THE CHOICE HERE? please tell me what is "Alice in wonderland" about the following statement.
God created ALL the circumstances to such a degree that he knew what the outcome would be. This would suggest there was only one outcome, no alternative. Thus no real choice.Please don't try to infer that i am dodging Culpability... that is not the point here, I do not believe in god, I believe we (to a large extent) control our destiny by virtue of the choices we make.
What I am doing is attempting to show one particular contradiction/illusion (call it what you will) in the bible.. i.e. the illusion of choice at the fall. I feel the story, as told in genesis, suggests there was no choice, thus God has man incorrectly held responsible for 'the fall'.
I hold the opinion that if one is to believe in the bible's word as truth, then Genesis Suggests GOD is responsible for man's fall. Now if you choose to come back on that point with a "well, he's god... you wouldn't understand" type argument don't bother... you'd be wasting bandwidth. (oh wait... you've already done it.)