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Author Topic:   Did Adam and eve really have a choice?
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1048
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 1 of 219 (245961)
09-23-2005 12:28 PM


(bit of a cut and paste job, Still using some Quotes to illustrate the jist, centering on the main points I think...)

regarding the fall:
Following from a previous thread, Christians on this site have given me this impression:
God created adam and Eve, with all their inherant flaws, God recognised these flaws insofar as he knew what choice they would make when approached by the serpent. i.e. He knew that they would fall.

My question is:why set this chain of events in motion in the first place if he knew so much sufferring would come from it? why set things up as they were/are when, as an all powerful Creator. He could have tweaked a few things here or there to prevent the Fall and hence all the suffering in the world. He sat Idly by and watched it unfold. How can anyone worship such a being other than through fear of further cruelty? I think someone already used the Battered wife analogy... very apt.

iano writes:

We were born on a default path to hell. But Adam and Eve weren't so shackled

Oh but they were.... God knew their weakness... God designed them with this weakness... God placed them in the Garden of Eden with the Tree. God knew what choice they would make... they were pawns in a game, chracters in a play, doomed to play out what had been written. they were most certainly shackled. shackled to the speeding train which would become the trainwreck that is Humanity.

iano writes:

Lotto numbers will be pulled on Saturday evening in Ireland. If you could see the future would it affect the numbers that are pulled or are you just seeing it happen before it happens

If I designed/built the machine and the lotto balls knowing that a certain sequence of numbers would certainly pop out given the right circumstances (which I ensured came about). then it would most certainly affect the outcome. Yes. I believe (within the assumption that genesis is truth) from the moment of Design that choice was removed. there was only one course of action that would happen. God knew this. Yet he still let it happen.
If God is so desperate for our love he could have it, easily. But he chose this world, this way, this humanity. And he seeks to blame us for it.

I contend that this God is not a loving God. he is a cruel and sadistic god.


Replies to this message:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 219 (245964)
09-23-2005 12:36 PM


Moved to Faith & Belief by AdminJar

This message has been edited by AdminJar, 09-23-2005 11:37 AM


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iano
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 3 of 219 (245967)
09-23-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
09-23-2005 12:28 PM


Crevo writes:

Christians on this site have given me this impression:
God created adam and Eve, with all their inherant flaws

When God created he surveyed all he had made and said "it is good" This is a hint that there was nothing flawed about it. Designing someone who can make a choice is not a flaw in the design (or the designer). It is a risk. When someone chooses to love someone else they expose themselves to the potential that the person will hurt them. A beloved wife can run off with another man for example. God took that risk in creating Adam and Eve with choice. And he knew the outcome before it happened.

Some questions:

You imply that Gods ability to know the outcome affects the outcome. All God employs is foreknowledge. How do you tie forknowledge of the choice that will be made by a being you've designed to have the ability to make own choices - to the idea that the design ensured the choice wasn't actually one?

As asked before. If Adam and Eve had chosen not to disobey God, your argument equally states that Adam and Eve were pre-destined by God, by his design, to obey him. He would have had foreknowledge of this choice too. Disobey or obey - neither can be made with free choice you are arguing. What you are saying that God cannot make a being with free choice.

But why not? What influence could God not prevent himself having on the design which would render it impossible to achieve his goal. Foreknowledge isn't it

Why he would chose to proceed along this path knowing all the consequences is a further question. The question you ask is whether Adam and Eve had choice at all.

Lets address that.

Good weekend


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 Message 1 by Heathen, posted 09-23-2005 12:28 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Heathen, posted 09-23-2005 1:38 PM iano has responded
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Heathen
Member
Posts: 1048
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 4 of 219 (245968)
09-23-2005 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
09-23-2005 1:21 PM


iano writes:

You imply that Gods ability to know the outcome affects the outcome

Nope, I'm suggesting that if god Designed us, and God knew we(Adam and Eve) were going to make the wrong choice, he had the power to review that design and prevent the inevitable from happening. he did not. He had the ability to affect the outcome. he did not.

iano writes:

How do you tie forknowledge of the choice that will be made by a being you've designed to have the ability to make own choices - to the idea that the design ensured the choice wasn't actually one?

See above.... he knew what was coming, had the ability to change it, He didn't. (I'm not talking about removing free will here, what about showing them more clearly what the consequences would be?)

iano writes:

If Adam and Eve had chosen not to disobey God, your argument equally states that Adam and Eve were pre-destined by God, by his design, to obey him.

I agree. So why set this chain of events in motion? why not let Adam and Eve see fully the consequnces so they could make an informed decision? why have the tree of knowledge? Why set the trap in the first place?

iano writes:

Why he would chose to proceed along this path knowing all the consequences is a further question

and one related to the choice/no choice issue. If I believed in God, the God of the Bible, I would want to know the answers to these questions before I began Worshiping this being. the evidence i see points to an unloving God.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6617
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 5 of 219 (245969)
09-23-2005 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
09-23-2005 12:28 PM


Yeah, that is pretty much it. God said, "Let us make humans, even though we know that they are going to fail and that most of them will burn in hell for all eternity. But let's do it anyway. It's worth it that billions of people are tormented for all eternity as long as we get a few sycophants out of it."
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gene90
Member (Idle past 1986 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 6 of 219 (245971)
09-23-2005 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Heathen
09-23-2005 1:38 PM


quote:
See above.... he knew what was coming, had the ability to change it, He didn't. (I'm not talking about removing free will here, what about showing them more clearly what the consequences would be?)

How do we know how clearly Adam and Eve could have understood the consequences?

Genesis recorded what's supposed to be the dialogue, if you take it literally.

If that's not the literal version of what happened, but more likely a second-hand description attributed to Moses, who was writing for an audience that comprehended death all too well, he wouldn't have to take the time to explain what "death" was. Everybody would already get it.

It would be like writing a friend an email about what you did yesterday and taking the time to explain what in detail what a television, a car, and a book are.

This message has been edited by gene90, 09-23-2005 02:12 PM


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Heathen
Member
Posts: 1048
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 7 of 219 (245974)
09-23-2005 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by gene90
09-23-2005 1:58 PM


gene90 writes:

How do we know how clearly Adam and Eve could have understood the consequences?

I'm working under the assumption that Genesis is correct, that it actually happened as it is in the Bible in order to better understand how someone who believes this can justify god's actions.

If they couldn't have understood the consequences, how on earth (or heaven) could they be expected to make that choice?


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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3110
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 8 of 219 (245975)
09-23-2005 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Chiroptera
09-23-2005 1:45 PM


That is why I like one of the Jewish explainations so much better. God knew that Man would be tempted, and eat from the tree of Knowledge of good and evil. It is only by learning, and being able to make both right and wrong choices that someone can learn to make the RIGHT choice.

God set man up, so man would be able to make choices. By choose the good choices, man can be closer to god, and live a more sanctified life.


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gene90
Member (Idle past 1986 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 9 of 219 (245976)
09-23-2005 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Heathen
09-23-2005 2:14 PM


quote:
I'm working under the assumption that Genesis is correct, that it actually happened as it is in the Bible in order to better understand how someone who believes this can justify god's actions.

Well, okay. Since a lot of people (not me) believe in a literally inerrant (and complete) Bible, I'll let them explain it.


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nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 10 of 219 (245977)
09-23-2005 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by gene90
09-23-2005 1:58 PM


How do we know how clearly Adam and Eve could have understood the consequences?

I think the answer is clear from the creation story itself:
Before they ate the forbidden fruit, they had no knowledge of good and evil. Therefore they could not understand the consequences. Nor could they even understand the idea that it was wrong.

After they had partaken of the fruit, they then knew good and evil, and so were then able to understand. But it was too late.


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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2090 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 11 of 219 (245987)
09-23-2005 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
09-23-2005 12:28 PM


well. arach and i have been discussing this for some time. it seems to me a good explaination..

god created us because he was lonely and there was nothing like him in the universe. but he doesn't want us until we have matured into gods where we can be on his level. no one wants an unequal lover..

god has two main aspects in the old testament: he knows everything and he's eternal. these two aspects are summed into the two trees. it seems god wants us to be like him. we are made in his image. in order to become gods ourselves, we must achieve the two aspects. he gave us our option. we picked knowledge. this is a useful, but dangerous tool. we have to learn to use it wisely and we will be able to attain life on our own.

if you live long enough, you will learn everything. if you know everything, you will learn how to life forever. so either way we will become gods (if merely as a race) and give him company.


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Heathen
Member
Posts: 1048
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 12 of 219 (245996)
09-23-2005 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by macaroniandcheese
09-23-2005 4:38 PM


brennakimi writes:

if you live long enough, you will learn everything. if you know everything, you will learn how to life forever. so either way we will become gods (if merely as a race) and give him company.


I guess I won't hold my breath then :/

Still seems to me that God (as per the Bible) had the ability to share his knowledge with us and give us immortality. I know I know... the christians among you will say that is what he gives us if we do right. But why the whole test in eden/life leading to certain hell thing? I'm nnot sure I want to end up swanning round paradise with such a being.

If I believe anything at all. It's that we are chemicals and energy, we know (or at least accept) that energy is not destroyed, merely converted from one form to another... I wonder what my energy will do when I die? or if, when you separate energy and chemicals we cease to exist completely. but that's a different thread.


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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2273 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 13 of 219 (246056)
09-24-2005 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
09-23-2005 1:21 PM


just a comment
When God created he surveyed all he had made and said "it is good" This is a hint that there was nothing flawed about it.

so.. you are claiming that good things can't be flawed?
i always thought this wasn't a very good answer, god said "good" not perfect, if it was flawless he would have said perfect, or something like that.

this always burned me a bit since pefection is impossable


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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2273 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 14 of 219 (246057)
09-24-2005 4:17 AM


it still comes down to eather god is not all powerful/all knowing or
he is a sick monster that creates something to play with and when that thing does something god doesn't like even though god taught it nothing of what he doesn't like, it gets screwed over.. umm yeah thats good, real forthought there
    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12414
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 15 of 219 (246061)
09-24-2005 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
09-23-2005 12:28 PM


Bad God!
Creavolution writes:

If God is so desperate for our love he could have it, easily. But he chose this world, this way, this humanity. And he seeks to blame us for it.

I contend that this God is not a loving God. he is a cruel and sadistic god.

Really? I don't see it quite like that. I agree that God foreknew what was going to happen. He allowed His creation independance from Him in a total way.

We have the ability to wish or "prove" Him out of existance. So suppose He was not real. Why be mad at a God that you did not agree to? Allow a God into your conception that is not cruel and sadistic.

Creavolution writes:

God created Adam and Eve, with all their inherant flaws, God recognised these flaws insofar as he knew what choice they would make when approached by the serpent. i.e. He knew that they would fall.

Well, from what we know of the story, which is not the totality of what He knew and also not the totality of how Adam and Eve perceived reality, the Serpant fell first...otherwise he would be as gentle as all the other animals supposedly were.

God never made an evil Satan. God allowed through foreknowledge that a freewill Lucifer would spawn the desire to raise up and be like God.

Metaphor: Iron and Steel. A cast Iron skillet is strong yet brittle. It breaks rather easily. Through tempuring the metal, iron becomes stronger...like steel. Satan was known as the temptor. Perhaps he was allowed to exist so that we innocent humans would have something to resist...in order to grow stronger, like with muscles.

First, however, we had to be shown how humanity was incapable of raising up without help. Jesus came for that answer. People ask what big deal did Jesus do, seeing as how He was God and could not eternally die. What we forget was at that time, He was a man. It would be as if you stepped on my toe and it did not hurt me, but if I also could be a bug, you would squish me at that point. Jesus died, yet God never died...so Jesus had the hookup to be raised from the dead.

Some say that the whole story is needless nonsense, and I sometimes see their logic. Why could God not merely snap His fingers and teach humanity an instant lesson? Well....He has all the time in the world and we have 85 years+, so the pressure is on us to make the move.

See my other post here.


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