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Author Topic:   Wholley Jesus!
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 1 of 76 (429210)
10-18-2007 8:28 PM


I was taught the story of Jesus as an example of how to live one's life in righteousness. I was also taught living in this way was my ticket to heaven. I think I was duped!
The whole story was not told or rather the interpretations mainly cover only two parts of his life. The life lived in righteousness and the afterlife in heaven. These aspects cover only cause and consequence. The cause was Jesus'life lived and the consequence was the reward of heaven.
In reality, his life as a mortal consisted of three parts. The cause was his righteousness. The effect was some loved and followed him whilst others feared and hated him. The consequence was cruxifiction.
All aspects of humanity follow this principle of cause, effect and consequence. The whole of Jesus' life story, taken from an objective perspective and using this principle, could present a whole new meanings to life and humanity.
This concept will be difficult to take for 'creationists' and maybe even 'evolutionists'. However, I simply think a different perspective is worth discussing and could promote some outside of the box thinking.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 10-19-2007 5:01 AM pelican has replied
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 10-19-2007 5:01 AM pelican has replied
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 10-19-2007 12:27 PM pelican has replied
 Message 52 by Equinox, posted 10-26-2007 12:39 PM pelican has replied
 Message 76 by pelican, posted 01-27-2008 9:20 PM pelican has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 7 of 76 (429319)
10-19-2007 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jon
10-19-2007 5:01 AM


Re: Three parts, or two?
You call it a chain. I call it a process. The process is always cause, effect and consequence. They may not be the desired effects or consequences and can be manipulated but nevertheless, the cause, effect and consequence 'chain' runs throughout life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 10-19-2007 5:01 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Jon, posted 10-19-2007 2:59 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 8 of 76 (429324)
10-19-2007 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
10-19-2007 5:01 AM


Re: Wholly Holy Moley
Love your title. I believe Jesus life was a general example of the causes, effects and consequences of the human belief system.
For example one belief he practised and taught was to turn the other cheek. Very noble, but the effect can be that you get slapped again and it may only be the beginning of a beating. The possible consequences of such noble actions are omitted or honoured by martyrdom.
Jesus' belief of 'love your enemies' was the cause of his torture and death. His righteousness was surely abused. He had the power to save himself but we are taught he died for our sins as the reason.
Could the reason he did not save himself be because he would not change his belief system? Could the cause have been because he would not harm others in doing so? Could the story of Jesus' life be an example not of goodness, mercy and righteousness but one of self creation?
Following the beliefs of Jesus in todays' society generally leads to suffering in one way or another and the promise of a ticket to heaven is no consolation. A life of suffering, as Jesus did, leads to more suffering. Hasn't huamnity suffered enough?
The whole truth of Jesus life purpose could surely open up a whole new reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 10-19-2007 5:01 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 10-19-2007 11:44 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 12 of 76 (429438)
10-19-2007 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
10-19-2007 11:44 AM


Re: Wholly Holy Moley
I don't see the authenticity of Jesus as relevent. However, the interpretations of his teachings and examples from the story of Jesus shape the lives of many. It is the interpretation I am addressing.
If the life story of Jesus is being followed as a perfect example of how to live, then the whole story of cause, effect and consequence in his life needs to be fully understood. I don't believe it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 10-19-2007 11:44 AM Phat has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 13 of 76 (429443)
10-19-2007 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jon
10-19-2007 2:59 PM


Re: Three parts, or two?
Cause : my post
Effect : your reply
Consequence : dialogue between strangers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Jon, posted 10-19-2007 2:59 PM Jon has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 14 of 76 (429449)
10-19-2007 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
10-19-2007 12:27 PM


The whole truth
Ringo "[I don't see why you make a distinction between effect and consequences.]"
I honestly don't see why you don't! Cause, effect and consequence is a natural progression throughout life. The issue here is the effect and consequence on Jesus himself by living a righteous life.
I believe living a righteous life as percieved through Jesus causes immense suffering needlessly. If Jesus is to be held in high regard then we better know the full implications of follow my leader.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 10-19-2007 12:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 10-19-2007 11:03 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 16 of 76 (429463)
10-20-2007 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
10-19-2007 11:03 PM


Re: The whole truth
It seems we are viewing this topic from different perspectives. I see your point and O.K you could say that Jon's reply was a consequence, but it must have been a consequence of the effect my post had. I was using a broad and personal definition with Jon just to give a general idea. However, the three concepts are all present.
It depends on your view point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 10-19-2007 11:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 10-20-2007 1:31 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 18 of 76 (429480)
10-20-2007 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
10-20-2007 1:31 AM


Re: The whole truth
Your definitions show the connection to each other and I find it amusing that both definitions mention a cause. They really are intertwined.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 10-20-2007 1:31 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 10-20-2007 12:06 PM pelican has replied
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 10-20-2007 4:53 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 22 of 76 (429561)
10-20-2007 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
10-20-2007 12:06 PM


Re: The whole truth
Phats description in post 21 may answer your question. Action -reaction-aftermath. It is a process and you cannot separate them as different concepts because without cause there is no effect, without effect there is no consequence, without effect and consequence there is no cause. It is a way to percieve the cycle of life. In this case the life of Jesus.
Edited by dameeva, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 10-20-2007 12:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 10-20-2007 10:42 PM pelican has replied
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 10-20-2007 10:50 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 23 of 76 (429576)
10-20-2007 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
10-20-2007 4:53 PM


Re: The whole truth
Thanks for the alternative definition on cause, effect and consequence. I would say they have exactly the same meaning. In the case of Jesus I begin at his belief system being 1st cause. The beginning can be anywhere but for the sake of this debate I wish to keep it within his humanity. This way is then comparable to humanity today.
I believe we do not have the whole story, especially not the negative effects of Jesus' belief system. They are not taken to the full conclusion. The story becomes false by ommision of truths.
For example, the honourable and noble teaching of turning the other cheek is so lacking in cause, effect and consequence. What is the basis for such a teaching? What caused a person to slap another initially? What does the obviously angry person do when you turn the other cheek? More than likely slap it again. Very negative, especially for the victim\martyr. If you are the one being slapped, don't you have a choice?
Could we have been percieving Jesus from a narrow perspective? Could it be that Jesus was there to give us more freedom of choice, rather than restrict us to following? Could his teachings have been for us to learn to think for ourselves? Maybe the picture was deliberately incomplete for us to use our imaginations? I feel the exploration of these possible intentions could complete the story. The implications are that the whole story could free us to make better, more informed choices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 10-20-2007 4:53 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 10-20-2007 10:52 PM pelican has not replied
 Message 34 by Doddy, posted 10-22-2007 5:57 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 27 of 76 (429670)
10-21-2007 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
10-20-2007 10:50 PM


Re: The whole truth
Ringo[By standing on my head and squinting just right, I had almost figured out that that was what you were getting at. I'm glad Phat confirmed it, since he's more up on jabberwocky than I am.]
There is an easier way. It's called thinking outside the box or maybe it's not so easy for some.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 10-20-2007 10:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 10-21-2007 11:07 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 28 of 76 (429677)
10-21-2007 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jon
10-20-2007 10:42 PM


Re: Support the Assertion or Retract
Yes sir! The process depends on the starting point of choice and is followed by a reaction. The reaction causes another reaction which could then become the cause of yet another chain. They can only be destinguished by choosing a starting point as a cause.
An illustration of this can be seen in a definition Ringo gave for consequence. The defintion used the senerio of a motor accident as the consequence to a cause of reckless driving. The scenerio can be taken one step further, either forwards or backwards.
Taking it forward, the damage (omitted in the definition) caused in the accident could be termed the consequence, with the accident termed as the effect, and reckless driving the cause.
Taking it one step backwards, the cause of the reckless driving could have been an emergency, so therefore would become the cause of reckless driving, making the reckless driving an effect of the emergency and the accident the consequence of the other two combined.
Clear as mud, yes?
Using the concept of cause, effect and consequence allows the examination of three aspects of life taken from a chain of events. We could use more than three but to keep it simple, three is a nice round number.
I think the whole concept could be termed as lateral thinking. That's a thought. It just sounds logical to me but maybe not to others.
Can we move on now to the real topic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 10-20-2007 10:42 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 10-21-2007 4:04 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 31 of 76 (429792)
10-21-2007 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
10-21-2007 11:07 AM


Re: The whole truth
Ringo it's all been in plain English. Just because you do not understand it doesn't make me stupid.
I did my homework on lateral thinking. Apparently some chap named Edward de Bono coined the phrase. Lateral thinking sees from a different perspective. It seeks problems and solutions from different angles. This is what I am attempting to do here.
However, from personal experience I do know how hard it is to change an ingrained perspective without a physical experience to support it.
Can you bear with me and try to accept that, for the sake of this argument, the premise of cause, effect and consequence are present and by applying it to the knowledge we have of the Jesus story may uncover previously unaware information?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 10-21-2007 11:07 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 10-21-2007 7:21 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 33 of 76 (429798)
10-21-2007 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
10-21-2007 4:04 PM


Re: One of these things is too much like the other...
Are you a comedian or just a cheeky bugar who makes me laugh? I am one of the latter.
Jon, you are missing the most important point I am trying to make. The cause is the point at which you choose. The point at where your attention is drawn. From that point you take it two steps further in any direction and the cause, effect and consequence will reveal itself.
As was previously stated we could name them action, reaction and a reaction to the previous reaction but it doesn't roll very smoothly. It is quite simply three steps in a chain of events chosen from the point of attention.
This way of examination may show that life is a series of cycles that would give us greater control and more choices in our lives. Two links cannot form a chain. Using two would never get us past linear thinking. You do need three, minimum. They all link together and it is HOW they are linked together that forms the basis of this topic.
In conclusion, if all the replies continue in this vein of splitting hairs then I might as well piss off. ha ha ha ha ha
Edited by dameeva, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 10-21-2007 4:04 PM Jon has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 35 of 76 (429995)
10-22-2007 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Doddy
10-22-2007 5:57 AM


Re: The whole truth
[The basis for the teaching is passivity. In both Luke (Luk 6:27 & 6:35) and Matthew (Mat 5:44), Jesus says that you should love your enemies. Yes, it is very much implied that the person will slap your cheek again. Don't hit them back, and don't even get angry (Mat 5:22).]
Although you are way off the intended topic I would just like to comment on your quote. There is another side to this teaching of passivity. "Being slapped once is abuse. Allowing to be slapped twice is condoning abuse. Abuse is not tolerated in my world."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Doddy, posted 10-22-2007 5:57 AM Doddy has not replied

  
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