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Author Topic:   Is Genesis to be taken literally Part II
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 105 (187221)
02-21-2005 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jjburklo
02-21-2005 1:17 PM


A few dumb questions.
Interesting comments.
If there was no death would there be any purpose for a Tree of Life?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 1:17 PM jjburklo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 4:45 PM jar has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 17 of 105 (187226)
02-21-2005 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jjburklo
02-21-2005 1:17 PM


Well there are some preoblems with your approach:
1) Genesis does not mention anything about death entering the world at that point. The more natural reading is that God had no problems with humans becoming immortal so long as they were ignorant of Good and Evil.
2) If everything was immortal what is the point of having a Tree of Life ? Does it really make sense for God to create this Tree whose only function is to undo the effects of the "Fall" and then stop it being put to that very use ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 1:17 PM jjburklo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 4:42 PM PaulK has replied

  
jjburklo
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 105 (187258)
02-21-2005 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by PaulK
02-21-2005 1:28 PM


quote:
If everything was immortal what is the point of having a Tree of Life ? Does it really make sense for God to create this Tree whose only function is to undo the effects of the "Fall" and then stop it being put to that very use ?
And how do you know its exact function? Is its exact function every mentioned in the Bible? No its not. I don't know why it was created, just as there are plenty of things about God that I simply don't know, and will not know until I join Him in heaven. But its still an extremely interesting coincidence that God doesn't have a problem with Adam eating of the tree of Life until after the fall!!! Again, lets think, why would this be so? If man was mortal from the beginning then God would always have had a fear of Adam eating from the tree of life. God would have told Adam not to eat of it just like the tree of knowledge of good and evil from the beginning!
Again, I don't know the purpose of the tree of life. Regardless, of the position you take on the matter the purpose of the tree is still unclear, so it shouldn't hold any relevance. It's unclear either way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2005 1:28 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Brian, posted 02-21-2005 5:14 PM jjburklo has not replied
 Message 21 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2005 5:39 PM jjburklo has not replied
 Message 27 by doctrbill, posted 02-22-2005 1:33 AM jjburklo has not replied

  
jjburklo
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 105 (187260)
02-21-2005 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
02-21-2005 1:25 PM


Re: A few dumb questions.
quote:
Interesting comments.
If there was no death would there be any purpose for a Tree of Life?
Is there a clear purpose if there was death? This point is irrelevant to the matter at hand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 02-21-2005 1:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 02-21-2005 7:41 PM jjburklo has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 20 of 105 (187266)
02-21-2005 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jjburklo
02-21-2005 4:42 PM


Hi,
But its still an extremely interesting coincidence that God doesn't have a problem with Adam eating of the tree of Life until after the fall!!! Again, lets think, why would this be so? If man was mortal from the beginning then God would always have had a fear of Adam eating from the tree of life. God would have told Adam not to eat of it just like the tree of knowledge of good and evil from the beginning!
We have to remember that the authors of Genesis, and the final editor, were not writing for a critical audience, they were not concerned if the story was consistent or not. Most pre-renaissance 'history' writing was like this.
We shouldn't read too much into inconsistencies in the Bible.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 4:42 PM jjburklo has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 21 of 105 (187275)
02-21-2005 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jjburklo
02-21-2005 4:42 PM


Well, I think that it is quite clear from the name and the associated description that the Tree of Life had the purpose of either making the eater immortal or at the least indefinitely extending life (i.e. each eatign suspends aging for a period of time as other mythical trees supposedly did). If the tree had some other primary function and there was no death why would it be called the Tree of Life ? If it were named for a function why not the primary function ? So you are wrong to dismiss it as insignificant.
And it seems quite clear to me that it is BECAUSE Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that God doesn't want Adam to eat from the Tree of Life. Either God didn't consider the possibility that Adam would disobey him, knew what would happen in advance (and therefore knew that Adam wouldn't eat from the Tree of Life before being banished) or the effect of a single eating was only temporary.
hen the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of (X)Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from (Y)the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"
Genesis 3:22 NASB
And if you are going to dismiss ideas as beign "unclear" why not dismiss the "no death before Adam" idea on the ground that Genesis doesn't even mention it, the NT references are unclear and the scientific evidence clearly contradicts the idea that there was no death before humans exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 4:42 PM jjburklo has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 105 (187311)
02-21-2005 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jjburklo
02-21-2005 4:45 PM


Re: A few dumb questions.
jjburklo writes:
quote:
Interesting comments.
If there was no death would there be any purpose for a Tree of Life?
Is there a clear purpose if there was death? This point is irrelevant to the matter at hand.
Certainly it had a clear purpose if there was death, to provide immortality. In fact that is the ONLY way it would have any purpose.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 4:45 PM jjburklo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 7:52 PM jar has replied

  
jjburklo
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 105 (187316)
02-21-2005 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
02-21-2005 7:41 PM


Re: A few dumb questions.
quote:
Certainly it had a clear purpose if there was death, to provide immortality. In fact that is the ONLY way it would have any purpose.
Well then under that purpose, why would God create it if in the end he takes Adam out of the Eden so that he won't gain immortality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 02-21-2005 7:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Coragyps, posted 02-21-2005 8:04 PM jjburklo has not replied
 Message 25 by jar, posted 02-21-2005 8:05 PM jjburklo has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 24 of 105 (187321)
02-21-2005 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jjburklo
02-21-2005 7:52 PM


Re: A few dumb questions.
why would God create it if in the end he takes Adam out of the Eden so that he won't gain immortality?
1) 'Cause He didn't think it through very carefully.
or
2) 'Cause that's the way the story got passed down to the scribe that wrote it down in its present form.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 7:52 PM jjburklo has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 105 (187322)
02-21-2005 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jjburklo
02-21-2005 7:52 PM


Re: A few dumb questions.
Actually, IMHO it is the creative plot device in the storyline to make sending Adam out of the Garden plausible. It's the only thing used in the story to justify kicking him out.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 7:52 PM jjburklo has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 26 of 105 (187377)
02-21-2005 10:49 PM


Always had trouble with Gen 1:30. Should I interpret this as meaning all beasts, all fowl, and everything that creepeth upon the earth (KJV), were vegetarians till Adam nibbled the apple? Then, and only, then, they divided into carnivores and others?

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 27 of 105 (187409)
02-22-2005 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by jjburklo
02-21-2005 4:42 PM


Bring a Knife to a Gunfight
jjburklo writes:
... the purpose of the tree is still unclear, ...
Is its exact function every mentioned in the Bible? No its not.
I don't know the purpose of the tree of life.
the purpose of the tree is still unclear, so
it shouldn't hold any relevance.
It's unclear either way
It is, apparently, unclear to you. But ...
Here's what I found with a quick search of scripture. Twelve verses talking about the Tree of Life.
Here are half a dozen of them:
"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, ..." Gen 2:9
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: ... " Gen 3:22
"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:24
Then, in the New Testament, anticipating a return to the Edenic estate:
"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7
"... the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations." Rev 22:2
"Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, ..." Rev 22:14
Here's what a quick search turns up on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Two whole verses:
"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." Gen 2:9
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17
It seems that the purpose of the Tree of Life is made a lot clearer in the scripture than is the purpose of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
This is a simple story.
Ask a simple question.
Get a simple answer.
If eating from the Tree of Knowledge gets you knowledge then ...
What do you get when you eat from the Tree of Life?
As the story has it, we would clearly live forever could we get our hands on that carefully guarded fruit.
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jjburklo, posted 02-21-2005 4:42 PM jjburklo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by contracycle, posted 02-22-2005 6:24 AM doctrbill has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 105 (187438)
02-22-2005 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by doctrbill
02-22-2005 1:33 AM


Re: Bring a Knife to a Gunfight
quote:
As the story has it, we would clearly live forever could we get our hands on that carefully guarded fruit.
Agreed. And I like tot ake that even further and argue the following: that god is clearly excited about the danger of humans eating the fruit of life becuase it would make humans equal to god:
Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Thus the only difference between humans and god is eternal life. And that is merely a technical problem to be solved. Thus, we are very nearly gods equals, on gods own terms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by doctrbill, posted 02-22-2005 1:33 AM doctrbill has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jjburklo
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 105 (187510)
02-22-2005 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by contracycle
02-22-2005 6:24 AM


Re: Bring a Knife to a Gunfight
quote:
Thus the only difference between humans and god is eternal life. And that is merely a technical problem to be solved. Thus, we are very nearly gods equals, on gods own terms.
Hmm, and yet eventually he offers eternal life anyways? Wow, He's shaking in his boots. This in no way makes us equal to God. Eternal life is offered to everyone. Angels have already been created, some have fallen. They are in no way on the same level of God even though they themselves have eternal life. This is entirely incorrect theology, that is not held up in Scripture at any time!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by contracycle, posted 02-22-2005 6:24 AM contracycle has not replied

  
Jor-el
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 105 (187514)
02-22-2005 2:05 PM


There is another option to consider considering the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
In the 1st instance, God only barred humans from partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The tree of life was not barred to them before the fall.
This being so, we can deduce that Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life on a regular basis. If the tree was intended to provide the immortality that made humans unique in that they didn't taste death, we can see logically that God would not want them to continue eating from the tree of life after they had gained knowledge of good and evil.
Thus death entered the world or more specifically, humanity.
We can also see from the passages that the two main aspects that define God are in existence in both these trees. God has eternal life and knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:17
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.
Having stated this God is warning them of the consequences of disobedience.
Genesis 3:22
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
(New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
Having disobeyed God and now having characteristics similar to those of God, God decided to banish them as a result of their disobedience as well as for fear of them continuing to eat of the tree of life.
As can be seen here and nearly all of the bible, God deals with man as the central issue. The bible is just as much about man as about God. That is why in my opinion other issues are not dealt with that would simplify matters concerning death as well as the existence of Gods creation before man was created. God systematically throughout the bible refrains from speaking about anything that doesn't directly refer to mankind in some way.

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by crashfrog, posted 02-22-2005 3:48 PM Jor-el has replied
 Message 34 by arachnophilia, posted 02-23-2005 2:51 AM Jor-el has replied

  
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