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Author | Topic: Is Genesis to be taken literally Part II | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Interesting comments.
If there was no death would there be any purpose for a Tree of Life? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Well there are some preoblems with your approach:
1) Genesis does not mention anything about death entering the world at that point. The more natural reading is that God had no problems with humans becoming immortal so long as they were ignorant of Good and Evil. 2) If everything was immortal what is the point of having a Tree of Life ? Does it really make sense for God to create this Tree whose only function is to undo the effects of the "Fall" and then stop it being put to that very use ?
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jjburklo Inactive Member |
quote: And how do you know its exact function? Is its exact function every mentioned in the Bible? No its not. I don't know why it was created, just as there are plenty of things about God that I simply don't know, and will not know until I join Him in heaven. But its still an extremely interesting coincidence that God doesn't have a problem with Adam eating of the tree of Life until after the fall!!! Again, lets think, why would this be so? If man was mortal from the beginning then God would always have had a fear of Adam eating from the tree of life. God would have told Adam not to eat of it just like the tree of knowledge of good and evil from the beginning! Again, I don't know the purpose of the tree of life. Regardless, of the position you take on the matter the purpose of the tree is still unclear, so it shouldn't hold any relevance. It's unclear either way.
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jjburklo Inactive Member |
quote: Is there a clear purpose if there was death? This point is irrelevant to the matter at hand.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4959 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi,
But its still an extremely interesting coincidence that God doesn't have a problem with Adam eating of the tree of Life until after the fall!!! Again, lets think, why would this be so? If man was mortal from the beginning then God would always have had a fear of Adam eating from the tree of life. God would have told Adam not to eat of it just like the tree of knowledge of good and evil from the beginning! We have to remember that the authors of Genesis, and the final editor, were not writing for a critical audience, they were not concerned if the story was consistent or not. Most pre-renaissance 'history' writing was like this. We shouldn't read too much into inconsistencies in the Bible. Brian.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Well, I think that it is quite clear from the name and the associated description that the Tree of Life had the purpose of either making the eater immortal or at the least indefinitely extending life (i.e. each eatign suspends aging for a period of time as other mythical trees supposedly did). If the tree had some other primary function and there was no death why would it be called the Tree of Life ? If it were named for a function why not the primary function ? So you are wrong to dismiss it as insignificant.
And it seems quite clear to me that it is BECAUSE Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that God doesn't want Adam to eat from the Tree of Life. Either God didn't consider the possibility that Adam would disobey him, knew what would happen in advance (and therefore knew that Adam wouldn't eat from the Tree of Life before being banished) or the effect of a single eating was only temporary.
hen the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of (X)Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from (Y)the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"
Genesis 3:22 NASB And if you are going to dismiss ideas as beign "unclear" why not dismiss the "no death before Adam" idea on the ground that Genesis doesn't even mention it, the NT references are unclear and the scientific evidence clearly contradicts the idea that there was no death before humans exists.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
jjburklo writes: quote: Is there a clear purpose if there was death? This point is irrelevant to the matter at hand. Certainly it had a clear purpose if there was death, to provide immortality. In fact that is the ONLY way it would have any purpose. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jjburklo Inactive Member |
quote: Well then under that purpose, why would God create it if in the end he takes Adam out of the Eden so that he won't gain immortality?
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
why would God create it if in the end he takes Adam out of the Eden so that he won't gain immortality?
1) 'Cause He didn't think it through very carefully.or 2) 'Cause that's the way the story got passed down to the scribe that wrote it down in its present form.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Actually, IMHO it is the creative plot device in the storyline to make sending Adam out of the Garden plausible. It's the only thing used in the story to justify kicking him out.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 3993 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Always had trouble with Gen 1:30. Should I interpret this as meaning all beasts, all fowl, and everything that creepeth upon the earth (KJV), were vegetarians till Adam nibbled the apple? Then, and only, then, they divided into carnivores and others?
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2764 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
jjburklo writes: ... the purpose of the tree is still unclear, ... Is its exact function every mentioned in the Bible? No its not. I don't know the purpose of the tree of life. the purpose of the tree is still unclear, so it shouldn't hold any relevance. It's unclear either way It is, apparently, unclear to you. But ... Here's what I found with a quick search of scripture. Twelve verses talking about the Tree of Life.Here are half a dozen of them: "And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, ..." Gen 2:9 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: ... " Gen 3:22 "So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:24 Then, in the New Testament, anticipating a return to the Edenic estate:
"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7 "... the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations." Rev 22:2 "Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, ..." Rev 22:14 Here's what a quick search turns up on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Two whole verses:
"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." Gen 2:9 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17 It seems that the purpose of the Tree of Life is made a lot clearer in the scripture than is the purpose of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This is a simple story.Ask a simple question. Get a simple answer. If eating from the Tree of Knowledge gets you knowledge then ...
What do you get when you eat from the Tree of Life? As the story has it, we would clearly live forever could we get our hands on that carefully guarded fruit. db
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contracycle Inactive Member |
quote: Agreed. And I like tot ake that even further and argue the following: that god is clearly excited about the danger of humans eating the fruit of life becuase it would make humans equal to god: Genesis 3:22And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Thus the only difference between humans and god is eternal life. And that is merely a technical problem to be solved. Thus, we are very nearly gods equals, on gods own terms.
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jjburklo Inactive Member |
quote: Hmm, and yet eventually he offers eternal life anyways? Wow, He's shaking in his boots. This in no way makes us equal to God. Eternal life is offered to everyone. Angels have already been created, some have fallen. They are in no way on the same level of God even though they themselves have eternal life. This is entirely incorrect theology, that is not held up in Scripture at any time!
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Jor-el Inactive Member |
There is another option to consider considering the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
In the 1st instance, God only barred humans from partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The tree of life was not barred to them before the fall. This being so, we can deduce that Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life on a regular basis. If the tree was intended to provide the immortality that made humans unique in that they didn't taste death, we can see logically that God would not want them to continue eating from the tree of life after they had gained knowledge of good and evil. Thus death entered the world or more specifically, humanity. We can also see from the passages that the two main aspects that define God are in existence in both these trees. God has eternal life and knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:17 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die. Having stated this God is warning them of the consequences of disobedience.
Genesis 3:22 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (New International Version)New International Version (NIV) Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society Having disobeyed God and now having characteristics similar to those of God, God decided to banish them as a result of their disobedience as well as for fear of them continuing to eat of the tree of life. As can be seen here and nearly all of the bible, God deals with man as the central issue. The bible is just as much about man as about God. That is why in my opinion other issues are not dealt with that would simplify matters concerning death as well as the existence of Gods creation before man was created. God systematically throughout the bible refrains from speaking about anything that doesn't directly refer to mankind in some way. We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.
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