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Author
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Topic: Is Genesis to be taken literally Part II
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3953 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: 05-24-2004
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Message 76 of 105 (197582)
04-07-2005 10:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
04-07-2005 2:25 PM
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Re: Allow me to clarify....
funny. my ideas are biblically based and yours are not. show me the fall of a freewill satan in the bible.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by Phat, posted 04-07-2005 2:25 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 79 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 12:58 AM | | macaroniandcheese has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1369 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 77 of 105 (197591)
04-07-2005 11:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
04-07-2005 2:25 PM
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Re: Allow me to clarify....
One point: God NEVER created an evil Satan. God created a freewill Lucifer who chose (and thus allowed) evil to exist. Evil by definition = rebellion from truth. god created hasatan, who tests men. if that's evil, god created it. lucifer is a misnomer. lucifer is a latin rendering of "heylel" which loosely means "bringer of light" in hebrew. literally translated into latin, that would be "lucifer" which means the same thing. both words are probably literally refering to the planet venus, which heralds the dawn half the year. but by the context (isaiah 14?) the title appears to applied to the king of babylon, nebuchadnezzar. not any spiritual being, although it seems to be playing on some lost ancient babylonian legend. either way, lucifer ≠ satan, and there is not evidence of a fall of any kind. in the context of the bible, or at least the ot, satan strictly serves the will of god. this concept is completely in line with biblical philosophy. it's nothing shocking to think that all evil originates from god. where else would it come from? is god not the creator of all things?
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Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
quote:
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by Phat, posted 04-07-2005 2:25 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 78 of 105 (197598)
04-08-2005 12:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 71 by jar
04-07-2005 6:25 PM
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If Jesus did it all, are we responsible for anything?
Jar, I read your link and it suggests that Original Sin is still very much a part of the human condition. To wit: usccb.org writes: By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state (Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1511-1512). It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed"a state and not an act. However, you then ask us the question:
jar writes: Jesus death reveals the message that GOD has forgiven us. Is that correct? Yes, and I suppose that you mean to imply that Jesus wiped original sin out, right? If so, what do we need to be saved from? The way you look at it, Jesus has already saved everybody without them having to do anything. This would make sense if we were expected to keep our own self wills. No man can serve two masters, however. Just because Jesus died and rose again, we have the salvation by grace through faith. Our faith must be a choice, however. Faith in Him working through us or faith in our own internal wisdom and perception of divinity. You can't have both.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 71 by jar, posted 04-07-2005 6:25 PM | | jar has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Re: Allow me to clarify....
Jesus alluded to the fact that Satan was booted out of Heaven. In order to have even been in Heaven Satan must have been good at one time. niv writes: Luke 10:18-20 18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
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macaroniandcheese
Suspended Member (Idle past 3953 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: 05-24-2004
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Message 80 of 105 (197601)
04-08-2005 1:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
04-08-2005 12:58 AM
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Re: Allow me to clarify....
find any other mention of it. an allusion is no good as far as i'm concerned.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 12:58 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 81 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 1:11 AM | | macaroniandcheese has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Re: Allow me to clarify....
Well..what is your point? Do you not believe in the fact that life as we know it has two basic choices...
1) The Holy Spirit
2) All the others
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macaroniandcheese
Suspended Member (Idle past 3953 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: 05-24-2004
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Message 82 of 105 (197604)
04-08-2005 2:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
04-08-2005 1:11 AM
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Re: Allow me to clarify....
immaterial. if you expect me to back up my claims, i expect you to back up your claims. show me where in the bible it tells the story of how satan fell from heaven. surprise. it doesn't. that's in milton. not the bible. anyways. you're dragging us off topic. stop it. no preaching. badphat.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 1:11 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 83 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 3:03 AM | | macaroniandcheese has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Genesis: Literally or figuratively?>>>>>>>>>>>
badphat....(((  ))) OK...topic was....Genesis...literal or not? Backatcha.....
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2934 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: 04-09-2004
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Message 84 of 105 (197615)
04-08-2005 4:25 AM
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Reply to: Message 31 by crashfrog
02-22-2005 3:48 PM
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Impressive. I usually have to warm up before gymnastics. Thanks, my mind was hurting just trying to follow the point.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by crashfrog, posted 02-22-2005 3:48 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2934 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: 04-09-2004
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Message 85 of 105 (197618)
04-08-2005 4:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
04-07-2005 6:27 PM
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Re: How often were the authors enlightened?
In a similar sense, the authors of the Bible were all inspired SOME of the time in my belief, but I have a harder time believing that every single word was inspired.
But how can you tell inspired from non-inspired? wouldn't you have to be inspired? If you are inspired why do you need scriptures?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by Phat, posted 04-07-2005 6:27 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 86 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 5:39 AM | | tsig has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 86 of 105 (197626)
04-08-2005 5:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 85 by tsig
04-08-2005 4:39 AM
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Re: How often were the authors enlightened?
DHA writes: But how can you tell inspired from non-inspired? wouldn't you have to be inspired? If you are inspired why do you need scriptures?
 well....good point! Without meaning to sound "enlightened" how can I describe to you what I mean? Hmmmm..Ok here goes: The best way that I can give an example of this type of impartation is for you to listen to people whom I hear the wisdom from and let you be the judge. Two good preachers who are NOT fake and goofy like the TBN ones on T.V. are these guys: http://www.calvarygs.org/radio/online.htm Raul Ries Listen to Dr. Michael Youssef Sermons - Leading The Way Radio Michael Yousef. Maybe you can't sense the impartation of wisdom beyond mere dogma. If not, perhaps it is I who need to understand you better.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by tsig, posted 04-08-2005 4:39 AM | | tsig has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 87 by tsig, posted 04-08-2005 6:24 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2934 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: 04-09-2004
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Message 87 of 105 (197627)
04-08-2005 6:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
04-08-2005 5:39 AM
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Re: How often were the authors enlightened?
Two good preachers who are NOT fake and goofy like the TBN ones on T.V. are these guys: Tried both links and both wanted to sell me something. If you have inspired preachers why do you need inspired scriptures, surely the preachers are in closer communication with god than you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 86 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 5:39 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4019 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: 06-08-2004
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Message 88 of 105 (197628)
04-08-2005 6:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 87 by tsig
04-08-2005 6:24 AM
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Re: How often were the authors enlightened?
If you have inspired preachers why do you need inspired scriptures, surely the preachers are in closer communication with god than you. Works for Catholics. Oops, they have a job vacancy.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by tsig, posted 04-08-2005 6:24 AM | | tsig has not replied |
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macaroniandcheese
Suspended Member (Idle past 3953 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: 05-24-2004
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Message 89 of 105 (197644)
04-08-2005 9:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
04-08-2005 3:03 AM
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Re: Genesis: Literally or figuratively?>>>>>>>>>>>
yes. jesus and the holy spirit are not in genesis. (at least not without some revisionist theological fiddling.)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 3:03 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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macaroniandcheese
Suspended Member (Idle past 3953 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: 05-24-2004
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Message 90 of 105 (197646)
04-08-2005 9:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
04-08-2005 12:49 AM
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Re: If Jesus did it all, are we responsible for anything?
Faith in Him working through us or faith in our own internal wisdom and perception of divinity. You can't have both. so he gave me a mind and i am to waste it by simply following some preacher like a sheep? sorry. don't sheep go astray? i cannot believe that my god would create my intellect in order that it should be a temptation to draw me away from him. something inherent and inescapable... it cannot be. it cannot be that i am right in following someone else's perception of divinity but not my own, when the other does not line up with scripture OR reason.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 12:49 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 92 by Phat, posted 04-08-2005 2:12 PM | | macaroniandcheese has replied |
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