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Author Topic:   Acceptance, Evolutionists vs. Creationists
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 61 of 134 (113412)
06-07-2004 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Hangdawg13
06-07-2004 9:36 PM


Well it appears all the earth was under water at one time because 95 percent of all the fossils we find in any layer are marine.
Does not follow. Since 95 percent of all fossils are marine, that indicates that all parts of the Earth were under water at some time or times, but does not necessarily indicate that all parts of the Earth were under water at one time. Of course, other evidence indicates strongly (so strongly that it's as "proven" as anything is in science) that there has been no time when the entire Earth was under water. Different parts were under water at different times.
BTW, the fact that 95% of all fossils are marine also indicates that conditions promoting fossilzation are much more likely in marine environments than in others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-07-2004 9:36 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-07-2004 10:13 PM JonF has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 62 of 134 (113413)
06-07-2004 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by JonF
06-07-2004 8:56 PM


"Two thirds of the Haymond is composed of a repetitious alternation of fine- and very fine-grained olive brown sandstone and black shale in beds from a millimeter to 5 cm thick. The formation is estimated to have more than 15,000 sandstone beds greater than 5 mm thick." p. 87. "Tool-mark casts (chiefly groove casts), flute casts and flute-lineation casts are common current-formed sole marks. Trace fossils in the form of sand-filled burrows are present on every sandstone sole, but nearly absent within sandstone beds." p. 88
I don't know what ya'll think about Walt Brown, but he has an explanation at Center for Scientific Creation – In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood He claims that liquefaction is responsible for this layering and groove and flute casts.
157 layers per day need to be deposited. The problem is that the animals which made the burrows mentioned above, need some time to re-colonize and re-burrow the shale. Is it really reasonable to believe that 157 times per day or 6.5 times per hour, for all the burrowers to be buried, killed, and a new group colonize above them for the process to be repeated? Even allowing for a daily cycle, would require 41 years for this deposit to be laid down.
He is assuming that these layers were laid down one at time instead of layed down mostly at once and then layered by liquefaction. An experiment can be done by shoveling some sediments into a waterjug and filling it with water. You take another water jug and hook both to a pipe and turn upside down. You tip the apparatus back and forth causing water to flow up and down through the sediments simulating wave action. After a while you see thinly layered alternating patters of sediments. In between layers a water lense is formed. This liquefaction theory claims the burrowers were gathered into the lenses and the pressed into the layer above when the water lense collapsed.
A detailed examination of the young earth creationist claim that the geologic column does not exist.
I know that these 12 layers exist. The problem is that you find somewhere between four and tweleve. And places where you have few like the grand canyon layer is stacked on top of layer all the way to the top the layers stretch out for miles this way.
At junctures where the other seven or eight layers were supposedly gouged out there is no discontinuity. The next period begins right where the last one left off without a dip or pause. Billions of years of history are missing yet we have no evidence to tell us what snatched them away. Its as if 2/3 of the layers in between simply disappeared without a trace leaving no major errosional irregularities behind.
True, not every period of time will sediments be laid down. But if they are not being deposited they are being erroded away by rainfall or other more destructive forces of nature.
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-07-2004 09:22 PM

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 63 of 134 (113414)
06-07-2004 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by JonF
06-07-2004 9:58 PM


BTW, the fact that 95% of all fossils are marine also indicates that conditions promoting fossilzation are much more likely in marine environments than in others.
OR it indicates that marine fossils are denser because they LIVE in water and do not float to the surface like vertebrates tend to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by JonF, posted 06-07-2004 9:58 PM JonF has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by NosyNed, posted 06-07-2004 10:28 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 64 of 134 (113416)
06-07-2004 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
06-07-2004 9:28 PM


Re: Let's see if we can deal with some of the basics.
Well, an animal gets buried in sediment before its bones are eaten away by animals or the weather. The bones exchange their minerals for other harder minerals around the bone causing it to become a bone shaped rock.
Is that correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 06-07-2004 9:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 06-07-2004 10:24 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 134 (113418)
06-07-2004 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Hangdawg13
06-07-2004 10:19 PM


Re: Let's see if we can deal with some of the basics.
How often do you think that happens?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-07-2004 10:19 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-07-2004 10:37 PM jar has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 66 of 134 (113421)
06-07-2004 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hangdawg13
06-07-2004 10:13 PM


Need to think things through a little
OR it indicates that marine fossils are denser because they LIVE in water and do not float to the surface like vertebrates tend to do.
What makes you think that is true. You do not get to make stuff up as an answer. You have to think things through. Remember that fish are "vertegbrates" too. I think if you check you will find that fish and we are about the same density and both when dead float for a bit after rotting sets in and then sink.
Your explanation doesn't hold water.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-07-2004 10:13 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-07-2004 10:42 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 67 of 134 (113424)
06-07-2004 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
06-07-2004 10:24 PM


Re: Let's see if we can deal with some of the basics.
Today, not very often. In a global flood perhaps a little more often. But hey... If you've got billions of years on your hands anything is possible eh? The point is we don't really know, therefore the fact that we find these fossils is not proof of evolution.
I know, I know, its not that we find this scant record at all, its that there are patterns in them. Its these patterns that are irrefutable proof of evolution.
Granted I don't know much about the patterns. I know many many people have claimed to fit them with the evolutionary theory. Nothing wrong with this. How many people have explored the patterns through the hydroplate theory of a global flood though?
Right, I know... you don't need to do this because evolution is a fact. Sigh... I wonder who challenges authority more: creationists or evolutionists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 06-07-2004 10:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by arachnophilia, posted 06-07-2004 10:48 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied
 Message 71 by jar, posted 06-07-2004 11:29 PM Hangdawg13 has replied
 Message 73 by coffee_addict, posted 06-07-2004 11:53 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied
 Message 99 by nator, posted 06-09-2004 9:51 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 68 of 134 (113425)
06-07-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by NosyNed
06-07-2004 10:28 PM


Re: Need to think things through a little
I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant Corals and shells. The great majority of these marine fossils, corals and shells, ARE denser than vertebrates including fish and would not float when dead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by NosyNed, posted 06-07-2004 10:28 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 06-07-2004 11:33 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 69 of 134 (113427)
06-07-2004 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Hangdawg13
06-07-2004 10:37 PM


Re: Let's see if we can deal with some of the basics.
Today, not very often. In a global flood perhaps a little more often.
because, you know, since we're dealing with miracles anyways, hell let's throw all the rules out the window.
The simple fact is that we know what catastrophic flooding look like. we have thousands of geological flood plains. we see how the "sort" fossils (read: not at all, we have to pick them apart). we see how falt it makes layers (read: jumbled the hell up). it geological column, as a whole, does not remotely resemble what flooding likes.
ever.
it would take a miracle to sort all of the patterns of life to appear heridatary, sort different types of rock into consistent layers all over the earth, and carefully arrange unique geologic histories for specific areas. of course, that is what you're arguing, right? miracles?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-07-2004 10:37 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 70 of 134 (113431)
06-07-2004 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Hangdawg13
06-07-2004 9:36 PM


Right. You're telling me after 500,000 years no member of a species would leave us a fossil to find?
no, i'm not. i'm telling you that even in 500 million years, to expect a direct line of heridity to appear one above the other in a direct line showing it's evolution is a diagram in a rock face is a ludicrous thing.
although we have many examples of species and differentiation in the fossil record, to expect it to record each significant step, or every generation, is also ludicrous.
also, any creationst presented with such a display would immediately conclude that each of the millions generations are in fact special creations which just HAPPEN to make a really nice line.
Well it appears all the earth was under water at one time because 95 percent of all the fossils we find in any layer are marine.
this is not suprising for the following reasons:
1. different areas of the earth are under water at different times.
2. water helps in the sedimentary process
3. techtonic activity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-07-2004 9:36 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 134 (113450)
06-07-2004 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Hangdawg13
06-07-2004 10:37 PM


Re: Let's see if we can deal with some of the basics.
Hangdawg13
Sure we even had a thread on that not too long ago.
Let me give you an idea of a couple reasons why the hydroplate theory is all wet.
All over the world we have found tracks of dinosaurs, other animals, imprints of plants that just left the most delicate tracing of their passing. Try this with your mud bath. Press something into the surface of the mud to make an imprint. Then do your slosh about. Then look at the imprint.
There are many other very good technical reasons that the hydroplate theory won't work. But I'll leave that for you to explore. You're quick and you actually seem to check things and sources out. You'll do the same with hydroplate.
But remember. Evolution is not anti Christian. God left us two great records. The Bible is there to deal with things like WHY, with the moral guidelines, a map that shows us how to live with ourselves, with others and with GOD.
He left us a second record. It is the universe that surrounds us. While the Bible has been written, edited, vetted and translated by men, the universe around us is exactly as written by the hand of God. And it tells a wonderful, beautiful and intriguing story. It shows us life growing from simple soft sea creatures into great living forms that play their part of stage, then fade away.
Read both records. I promise you that you cannot turn a page without increasing your wonder and appreciation.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-07-2004 10:37 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-08-2004 12:03 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 72 of 134 (113452)
06-07-2004 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Hangdawg13
06-07-2004 10:42 PM


Re: Need to think things through a little
Actually, you might want to check on the history of the Nautalis. It will give you a good first look at the sea creatures and the part they have played over the eons.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 73 of 134 (113463)
06-07-2004 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Hangdawg13
06-07-2004 10:37 PM


Re: Let's see if we can deal with some of the basics.
Sorry to get in the middle of your very uninteresting debate here that's been gone over for so many freaking times on these boards, but I have to correct some things.
Hangdawg13 writes:
Today, not very often.
This is your response to Jar's question about how often do you think fossilization occur. While this statement is technically correct, it is misleading. Fossilization had never been occuring "often" enough for us to possibly watch the event happening. For example, the dodo once existed, yet there is absolutely no existing dodo fossil to be found. The only reason we know they once existed is because of one single stuffed dodo head and dozens of records by past mariners.
Fossilization has always occured very very rarely. It's a miracle (figure of speech) that we have as many as we do.
In a global flood perhaps a little more often.
Would you like to explain this (and I'm assuming) educated guess?
We get floods all the time all around the world these days. We occasionally get really big ones that kill hundreds, sometimes thousands, of people. Yet, there hasn't been a single case of fossilization on record. So, I'm wondering what you have to offer for our educated guess.
But hey... If you've got billions of years on your hands anything is possible eh? The point is we don't really know, therefore the fact that we find these fossils is not proof of evolution.
Again, the statement is technically true but misleading. The theory of evolution can never be "proven". I really don't know how many times I have to repeat this on the boards for people to realize this well-known, but apparently not so well-known, fact.
So far, we have pieces of a puzzle and they seem to fit together rather well. Hence, we have a working theory that hasn't been properly challenged. Most of the time, we get bogus challenges that can be easily shot down. I would hardly called that proper challenges.
I know, I know, its not that we find this scant record at all, its that there are patterns in them. Its these patterns that are irrefutable proof of evolution.
Irrefutable proof???
Granted I don't know much about the patterns.
Thank you for admitting this.
I know many many people have claimed to fit them with the evolutionary theory.
It is not as simple as people claiming these things. It's people that has been working for years and decades to find pieces of the puzzle and paistakingly putting them together. In other words, they have a lot more merits than the average Joe.
How many people have explored the patterns through the hydroplate theory of a global flood though?
Many, and it just doesn't make any sense.
Right, I know... you don't need to do this because evolution is a fact. Sigh... I wonder who challenges authority more: creationists or evolutionists.
Sometimes, challenging the authority doesn't make it right. The KKK challenges the authority on racial issues and I don't think anyone can make a valid argument that the caucasion race is somehow superior to all other races.
They are kicking me out of the library, so I'll be back later for more.

The Laminator

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 Message 67 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-07-2004 10:37 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 74 of 134 (113465)
06-08-2004 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
06-07-2004 11:29 PM


Re: Let's see if we can deal with some of the basics.
I wonder how deep the deepest fossilized footprints are? Not all fossilized footprints had to be formed during the flood. You are right, I'm really not quite sure how fossilized footprints would be encased and protected DURING the year of the flood.
Also, after the flood waters receded, large precariously damed lakes would be formed waiting to burst and cause secondary floods. The earth would be quite shaken up by the flood causing other dramatic events such as lanslides that could cause these footprints to be buried.
I must admit the most I've read on the hydroplate theory is from one source: Walt Brown's book In The Beginning: Center for Scientific Creation – In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood
I have also read some of the articles at talkorigins refuting the flood and hydroplate theory, but realized many of their presuppositions were based on evolutionary rather than hydroplate models.
But remember. Evolution is not anti Christian. God left us two great records. The Bible is there to deal with things like WHY, with the moral guidelines, a map that shows us how to live with ourselves, with others and with GOD.
I am 18 and know many highschool and college students. The slightest elimination of God or any authority gives them reason to indulge in any kind of immorality. If some lab rats are practicing homosexuals theres no reason why humans can't be. From a hit song a while back, "Baby we aint nothin but mammals so lets do it like they do on the discovery channel."
The idea that evolution does not influence a person's worldview is debatable, in my opinion false.
If you are a christian and believe in evolution that is fine. But I cannot see how you can believe the Bible is God's Word and therefore perfect. Either evolution is correct or God deceived us or the Bible is fallible. So what if it tells us the right way to live? If God didn't make it or didnt' do a good job, Screw it, I'll just do what I feel like.
There is a prophecy that in the latter days Satan's great lie will propogate throughout the earth and even many elect will be deceived. Here's my hypothesis: everyone believes evolution, but can't exactly prove how it started. The exit ressurection occurs leaving everyone grasping for answers. "aliens"/fallen angels tell everyone that they seeded life long ago and are here to check up on the progress. They have removed all the trouble makers those who stood in the way of progress (Christians) and taken them into a big alien ship in space until the world is ready for them to come back. Channelers (those who speak to demons) have already predicted this. Ever read any magazines from Sonora, Arizona? People who claim to have been abducted by aliens have said aliens told them something to this effect. Anyways, just something for ya'll to think about and immediately dismiss...
Agreed the universe is marvelous. I don't know how old it is. I don't know for sure whether the six day creation event was actually six days (I'm still deciding). I don't know how long angels traversed the universe before God made man. But regardless of the theory, the universe does declare the glory of God.
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-07-2004 11:09 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 06-07-2004 11:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 06-08-2004 12:43 AM Hangdawg13 has replied
 Message 97 by arachnophilia, posted 06-09-2004 8:39 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 75 of 134 (113478)
06-08-2004 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Hangdawg13
06-08-2004 12:03 AM


Re: Let's see if we can deal with some of the basics.
Well, let's deal with things one at a time. You can determine how old the universe is for yourself. Go visit an observatory, find an astronomy club. Somebody with even a small telescope can show you stars and galaxies that are far further away than 6000 light years. So the age of the universe isn't really an issue. It's billions and billions of years old. It takes that long for the light from distant galaxies to get to us.
Next, the fossilized foot prints go back hundred of millions of years. So we can at least say that the history of live on Earth goes back that far.
But the footprints are just one thing. There are imprints of where burrowing things like worms crawled along the sea beds that go back even further.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-08-2004 12:03 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-08-2004 12:59 AM jar has replied

  
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