Acceptance, Evolutionists vs. Creationists

Whiskeypalian!And have you ever noticed how many good old hymns were actually set to beerhall songs? Particularly those great Easter hymns and standbys like Rock of Ages and Eternal Father Strong to Save were just meant to be sung with a big beer mug held aloft.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

haha

Now this is more like it! You see, we can all get along regardless of our standpoint on the debate. We're all party-hungry beer chugging idiots underneath all the other stuff! In fact, I just came from a party that had TERRIBLE food. What kind of a party has no pretzels?!

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

A scoliosis fundraiser?

a gluten-intolerance awarness seminar?

Oo! Oo! Let's keep going!Dr. Atkins' funeral?

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In all seriousness, I have been exposed to more of these 'fundies' that you are describing since I started coming to this forum. However, even if there are many more of these kinds, you can only hope to lighten them up if you try to accept their point of view first. Tossing cold, hard evidence at them will cause most of them to run off screaming. It's only with compassion and understanding that you can hope to change anyone.

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Oh, I'm not so arrogant to think I'm going to change anyone's mind. The best I think I can hope to do with the Fundies is to possible make them less completely sure they are right; to make them doubt what they have been told.My goal is to defend science and reason, and perhaps have some small influence upon the fence-sitters, too."Fundies" are not open to learning, as a rule. They have bought into a religiion that extracts a terrible price; they have given up reason and knowledge in favor of ignorance and the denial of reality.

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...but even in these instances I don't see anything wrong with a weak faith.

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You don't?Now, that is a surprise.A weak faith is very easily lost, B2P.The religions that promote literal genesis Creationism are also promoting weak faith that relies upon ignorance to maintian it.Anyone involved in one of these religions who is educated, intelligent, and honest will very likely have a crisis of faith at some point, because they have been told that their salvation depends upon them denying the reality of nature.We have many such people here at EvC, including Crashfrog, Zepher, and my husband, Zhimbo (he almost never posts these days--doctoral defense coming in February)

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Or they read the Biologists' writings them read something by a Creationist that claims to refute the earlier readings.

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Very, very, very few Creationists have ever read anything by any Biologist in it's entirety, in context.Trust me, I've seen little evidence of it in 4 years of active participation on EvC.They read what they see on the Creationist sites and in Creationist books and when they are referred to a science-based site or book they reject it, often without reading it, claiming that it is "biased" against God, or somesuch.They insulate themselves very effectively from any information that might upset the house of cards that is their ignorance-based and reality- denying faith.

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No, I'm not. It is ONE of the major themes, but there are others.

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I would say that the Crucifiction and the reason for it is the centerpiece of Christianity.I am astounded that you don't agree.

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All I'm saying is that there are reasons other than fear of death to believe in Christianity, and that fear of death is not the main reason.

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I'll agree that there are other reasons to belive in Christianity other than fear of death.However, unless the Crucifiction and the reason for it have been demoted in importance within Christianity, which I don't think it has been, you've still got the promise of eternal life in heaven as the main reason to believe.What is a belief in eternal life if it isn't fear of death being "the end"?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-13-2004 09:21 AM

i don't think i can beat that one. lmao.

That's not arrogance to think you can, it's only arrogance if you expect to. That sounds kind of cruel, to intentionally shake up somebody's faith. Why defend it if it speaks for itself? That's almost giving the stram man of 'evolutionists spreading their belief' some merit. People spread their religions with some annoying methods(door to door etc.), but they honestly believe they can save people with this. And what are you saving people from with this? Ignorance? I don't see the point. Far from the truth. Untrue. They are NOT promoting weak faith, that's just a silly thing to say. And I know you don't mean that literally, but it's still not true. But that doesn't mean they'll become atheist or switch beliefs. You forgot "B2P". Except post-crisis didn't turn to atheist. Maybe, but I've seen plenty of evidence that they have in more than 4 years of knowing people in REAL LIFE, and not an internet forum. So what did these guys do to you again? You're turning to some harsh descriptions. And lots of people would agree with you even if I'm not so sure. However, while that may be true, you also seem to assume the reason it is the center piece is simply because believers are stupid, sniveling cowards that are too terrified to accept the reality of no life after death. And that is just not true. Once again, if they believe there is life after death why would they be afraid to accept no life after death? Just because people don't believe in something doesn't mean people are afraid of it; that's exactly like the creationist straw-man tactic that says 'evolutionists' are afraid to accept that there is a God. Okay, then you agreed with my point. Fine and dandy, but your last sentence is a problem: What is a belief in no God if if isn't fear of an Absolute? Kind of a dumb question, but it's exactly like the one you just asked. I'll say it again: Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean you're afraid of it.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

The one you went to, silly! Ha ha ha!... Hey, wait a minute!

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That sounds kind of cruel, to intentionally shake up somebody's faith.

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No, I'm not intentionally trying to shake someone's faith. I am trying to give them good information about Evolution and to point out that they have been lied to and misled.Surely, you must approve of telling the truth and uncovering lies and misinformation, no?

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And what are you saving people from with this? Ignorance? I don't see the point.

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We have a fundamentalist Christian president right now. During Reagan's presidency, the Gipper called Evolution "just a theory" that was controversial in science. Several attempts have been made to get religion, in the form of Creationism or Intelligent Design, taught in public schools as science. Several of these cases made it to federal court and one made it to the US supreme court. Currently, there was a recent attack on science and reason in public school science curriculums in Ohio.There is a very vocal, organized movement, which has the ear of the right wing of the Republican party, to remove evolution from public school science classrooms and insert religious doctrine in it's place.Yes, right now, science in our classrooms needs defending by everyday people like me, because those Creationists vote.

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They are NOT promoting weak faith, that's just a silly thing to say. And I know you don't mean that literally, but it's still not true.

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Yes, they are promoting weak faith. Not literally, but it is a weak faith in effect.

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Except post-crisis didn't turn to atheist.

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But some do become athiests, and a lot leave Christianity altogether because they become disgusted with the idea that they were lied to.

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However, while that may be true, you also seem to assume the reason it is the center piece is simply because believers are stupid, sniveling cowards that are too terrified to accept the reality of no life after death.

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I never said people were stupid or cowardly for wanting to believe in life after death.I think it is a very normal, natural part of being human. We all feel the unease, the fear, about our own death once we understand the concept. People choose to deal with this reality in many different ways, and religion, with a belief in a heavenly afterlife, was one way we began to use a long, long time ago to help us deal with the finality of Earthly death.I'm passing no judgement. I'm just stating a anthopological observation about the human condition.

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What is a belief in no God if if isn't fear of an Absolute?
Kind of a dumb question, but it's exactly like the one you just asked. I'll say it again: Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean you're afraid of it.

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Come on, this isn't the same.Do you or don't you agree that death is a pretty overriding theme in many religions, including and especially Christianity?I visited this chapel in Portugal last year. Yes, the entire place is made of exactly what you think it is.Create a Website | Tripod Web Hosting This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-13-2004 06:42 PM

All I ever got at Catholic mass was some lousy box wine.

Yeah, but you catholics never got to really sin like us prods .

Yeah, I approve of the truth completely, because what you don't know is about to hurt you. Always.However, you're giving them information that would change their outlook on things if they agree your information to be factual. Most of them will just become more liberal, but that still is changing their faith as they once knew it. At this point you seem to have good intentions, but you need to be aware of what you're doing. I really don't care about public school and what it teaches, because none of it is stuff that I find useful. I'll quote Mark Twain on this one: I never let my schooling interfere with my education.School is a stupid and boring instrument used to create inteligent, but unenlightened worker bees that are forced to work in cubicles to make somebody else rich. I've been to several churches, none of which have mentioned science at all. To take on faith that something happened despite evidence is not weak faith at all, just incredible strong faith. I realize there are churches that throw out apologetics as the bulk of their sermons, but those programs are going to get their shit ruined once I'm old enough to be taken seriously Then they went too far. I realize that's a bold statement, but they shouldn't get disgusted at a doctrine, let alone their beliefs, because someone misused it to hurt them; you wouldn't be angry at a rock if I threw it at you, right? This 'reality' of earthly death being the end may not even be a reality, and as an open-minded person with no religious belief wouldn't it be more reasonable to figure there was a possibility for an afterlife? I agree.Now, explain to me how those two questions are not the same.I'll say it again: Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean you're afraid of it. If I'm not mistaken you're an atheist, which is fine. But are you atheist just because you're terrified of the concept of an all-knowing, all loving God?Please answer yes or no to that question. Most atheists I know wish they believed in one, so I'm pretty sure I know the answer. Wooohooo! Was that supposed to spook me? Learned all about the history of that joint in 5th grade. Personally, I don't really see what the big deal about digging up your buddies and making a church out of them is. If they wanted to freak people out (and deep down they did, no question), they should've ripped out live internal organs, preserved them in something thick and clear, and made a church out of THAT. Then maybe they'd be on the right track. Maybe...

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

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Yeah, but you catholics never got to really sin like us prods

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That's what you think. Catholics pretty much sin when they go to the bathroom, let alone everything else.